Agreed. Good debate 🙂

I must add that I have enjoyed the debate… an interesting way to pass time in lockdown so thanks 😊

“And you are doing just what I am doing – favouring the cultural model that suits your own proclivity”. No. I have not favoured any particular model, I have just given real examples of alternatives as evidence in support of my argument.
“In terms of the claim that sexual jealousy caused monogamy to develop, it would be more accurate to say that male sexual jealousy is linked to uncertain paternity, which becomes more of a problem in larger social groupings. ” I would not call this sexual jealousy at all. Agree with this, though of course not an argument supporting monogamy now, given the advent of contraception and DNA testing.
We can go round and round in circles here but maybe the time has come to agree to disagree on this one 👍

In some modern day hunter gatherer cultures where polyamory has survived, they train children at a very young age to learn to share, and to value sharing above all else. They actively shame possessive, jealous, non sharing behaviours.

They do exactly what we do – train children into the cultural norms that have developed within their society to solve the inherent conflict between individual desires and community harmony. And you are doing just what I am doing – favouring the cultural model that suits your own proclivity 😉

But, yes, I guess we do disagree on the fundamental point. I don’t accept that there is a “natural state” for human sexuality. I think there is natural variation within the human population in preference, and that social conventions have arisen to try and maintain social harmony rather than to impose religious dogma.

In terms of the claim that sexual jealousy caused monogamy to develop, it would be more accurate to say that male sexual jealousy is linked to uncertain paternity, which becomes more of a problem in larger social groupings. There’s a good article here on the topic.

I am not so sure we do agree, maybe just a little 😁
I believe humans evolved to be polyamorous, and that is their natural state, and would be the natural choice for the majority. There is strong evolutionary biological evidence for this. In modern day hunter gatherer cultures where polyamory has survived, the majority choose polyamory, and a only a small percentage choose a monogamous pair bond.
“the freedom that we currently enjoy in the West”. We are not free in the west, or at least polyamory is not a real choice in the UK. Going back to my religion comparison, we are born into the national religion of monogomy, we grow up participating in all the normal monogamous traditions and practices of our culture as we do not know any better and as humans, we have a overwhelming biologically programmed imperative to fit in. We are shamed if we deviate from this. It is perfectly legal to discriminate against polyamorists, and this does happen. I have never naturally met a polyamory practitioner so would be forever single and childless if I had known about this and chosen that way of life early on. It is only in midlife, with a real lived experience of lifelong monogamy that we can see the truth of it. But by then it is too late to choose anything else without causing harm to our families and to ourselves. Where is the choice in that?
“However, once humans started to live in larger groups, sexual jealousy became a far bigger problem, monogamy became a more attractive solution to managing the problem, and social conventions shifted.” Sorry but this is a personal view not a fact. I have not read anywhere of evidence suggesting monogamy came about to resolve sexual jealousy and indeed it does not resolve it at all. If anything I believe it indulges it and makes societies believe it should be pandered to when in fact jealousy is just a normal temporary emotional state, caused by an unfulfilled emotional need and instead of limiting the autonomy of others to stop the feeling arising, the person should work on their underlying issues, possibly with the help and support of their partner(s).
In some modern day hunter gatherer cultures where polyamory has survived, they train children at a very young age to learn to share, and to value sharing above all else. They actively shame possessive, jealous, non sharing behaviours. Sexual jealousy is not an issue in this type of culture. But in cultures that reward greed, it is an issue.

Allie,
And if I can add one thing, per one of his posts:
” We are made of flesh and blood that operate according to biochemistry of hormones, neurotransmitters, short skirts, spirited conversations, hypnotising eyes, or the way how she holds cigarette or crosses legs…”
It sounds like he is writing about general lust for women as a whole. That is not what limerence is about. It’s very directed interest/lust/fascination with one person. Although most people might not understand the obsessiveness about limerence, I think they can understand being in a long-term relationship and hit unexpectedly with unwanted feelings for someone else.

Thanks for the reference, Allie. I’d not heard of it, and it sounds worth a read for sure.

My immediate response, though, is that I think we actually kind of agree. I have no problem accepting that many pre-agricultural tribes worked on a polyamorous model, as their stable social construct. With a relatively small number of men and women in a close knit group, that’s a good strategy. That said, the history of Micronesia (as summarised by Jared Diamond) also suggests that lots of different social models of sexual interplay can arise and remain stable (including matriarchy).

However, once humans started to live in larger groups, sexual jealousy became a far bigger problem, monogamy became a more attractive solution to managing the problem, and social conventions shifted.

My argument is that it’s an error to think that either monogamy or polyamory are the true innate state of human sexuality, and that deviation from either is evidence that society has tried to suppress that “true state” because of gender power dynamics. I think we are all individually inclined to prefer one model or the other, and that social conventions have arisen when the drives of the individuals within society come into conflict with the stability of the community. Compromises are found, and coercive control is exerted (religious or secular enforcement of norms) to try and protect both the common good and also corrupt privilege.

Finally, I also agree that the best scenario for maximum human wellbeing is the freedom that we currently enjoy in the West. Ethical polyamory is pretty widely accepted, and infidelity in marriage is also no longer legally punished (directly). That’s progress, for sure. Nowadays, social stigma seems to mostly be reserved for dishonest conduct.

Allie,
“In his defense, I suspect he would love to bake and eat his cake but, like many of us, is prohibited from doing so by the rules of his culture.”
I’m just looking at it from the perspective of a single woman. Having a married guy ramble on about the sex he’d like to have with me but has no intention of doing … no thanks. It’s ineffectual, to use a more polite term than I’d like to. Unless the women he talks to are also married and have the same restrictions, I can’t imagine that being sexy for anyone. And for me, personally, I’m not a fan of spending a lot of time talking about sex. I had one guy do that … and when we finally got down to it, he followed his game plan step-by-excruciatingly mechanical step. That was a one-off. No need to do it again. You already know the plot! You’ve seen the movie. 🙂

No citation – this sentence was my own construct/idea/opinion.
Actually, Allie is more knowledgeable here , she seems to have found some scientific support.
With sincere apology that this opinion of mine has not been scientifically scrutinised, it is based on the empirical outcome of many conversations I had with various people.
Sure, you can argue that all those people are statistically insignificant sample to draw general conclusions – and you would be right to say so. I also have no reason to question your explanations of historical and anthropological background, but history helps me very little to understand contemporary setup of social dynamic..
It’s like predicting the stock market price based on its historical trends.
However, I don’t need science (even less religion) to acknowledge the conflict that I (and many others, I believe, so intensely feel) in misalignment of our individual with social norms.
Deep inside, we all know and feel the same, don’t we, Doc? We are made of flesh and blood that operate according to biochemistry of hormones, neurotransmitters, short skirts, spirited conversations, hypnotising eyes, or the way how she holds cigarette or crosses legs…
I do appreciate scientific approach to this problem, but human behaviour is still more art and magic than science.
My whole case here was displayed to show one of the possible lame-man solutions how to deal with the temptations of sexual drive toward other women within given moral restrictions.
I use these chats as a spice in my bedroom where they get converted into their “dirty” interpretation. Yes, with my spouse.
It is far from optimal, but is suboptimal in balancing my desires with minimised (still existent, though) social damage.
Works for me (to an extent), doesn’t mean it will work anyone else. The idea is not intended to convert anybody’s values or beliefs,but it is there to challenge exisiting stereotypes.

Reference “Sex at Dawn” by Cacilda Jethá and Christopher Ryan. Convincing and well evidenced research about how it is highly probable that pre-agricultural humans were polyamorous, and that sex was as as much about ensuring tribal cohesion and inter-tribal peace, as it was about reproduction. These theories are far better evidenced than Helen Fisher et al, and the game theorists – indeed it debunks the game theory sexual strategy completely.
“Societies that lasted, realised that enforcing a one-partner-each social convention protected against this existential risk.” The risk monogamy overcame thousands of years ago does not really exist any more in the west. We have contraception, accessible childcare and women can work and support themselves now. Where polygyny once made it harder for lower-mate-value men to find partners, polyamory actually makes it easier, because these guys don’t have to be good enough to be a woman’s primary partner.
For me, monogomy is just like a culturally enforced religion where I am a minority atheist.