I’m glad you like the sound of the book, Heebie Jeebies, and I do hope you check it out! I’m sure Tom has blogged about this before, but I do agree that limerent episodes have a habit of happening at periods of transition. Personally, I think the challenges of moving into a new phase of life, or dealing with traumatic events, IS the signal that there is a significant shift going on in our psyche and we need time and space to acknowledge it and integrate it. But it can all feel like too much. Limerence provides a welcome relief from loss, pain or sadness caused by life readjustments, and viewed in that way it’s a useful force to propel us through a difficult time and into the future where we might be better placed to cope with the transition/trauma. But, often, it can spiral into something messy, causing more stress, when, really, we should be working on the recent shift in our psyche. So, yes, definitely – “These are the periods where we confront our unconscious needs and persona most directly.” Wishing you all the best and Happy New Year!

HJ,

I should have taken a long walk before responding you in my previous post. Now, my mind was suddenly cleared up (by a pushed-brisk walk), although I maybe still wrong.

“I struggle to believe we consciously decide to become limerent – at most I could accept that the conscious resistance to revolution is sometimes less.

To stretch the revolutionary metaphor, we may be occasionally a little bit Menshevik, but certainly not Bolshevik.”

A clearer interpretation now: your metaphor is referring to whether LE could trigger a Bolshevik revolution inside us for character change, renewal, etc. And if such changes are called for, some limerents may only make it the Menshevik style, but certainly not the Bolshevik revolution. Am I right or wrong here?

Well, I think it depends on how much one wants to put up with LE pains, which varies from person to person, depending on their personality traits and whether LE is induced/triggered by past traumas, existing relationship dilemma, or that beastly boredom.

My LE pains (w/ small and huge panic attacks), combined or correlated with Hashimoto thyroiditis/lymphoma (two certainly triggered and worsened each other), and the determination to find a mental solution (without analyzing anything — impossible back then without LwL knowledge), led me to Stoic first.

Stoic practices were not so alien for me personally (already trained some in COO without its name), but which may sound revolutionary to many modern Westerners, especially in “limerent – mindset” world. To them, adopting/applying some Stoic mentality in one’s life might sound Bolshevik revolution, but to me it’s necessary Menshevik. Then one after another steps in building up this urgently needed/wanted mental/emotional shield, I think I’ve renewed (perhaps self-reinvented a bit), without changing but strengthening, expanding my old core — INFP (always fluid).

The interest fact is the demonic mask of limerence (put by COO), was removed by my newly acquired LwL wisdom. I become positively appreciative to the pink elephant — pair-bonding drive, Glimmer hit/shine, awakened Muses, sweet longing, deep affection, etc, residing inside all of us. Any elephant can be tamed, inspire one’s creativity, and instigate self renewal/reinvention — who does not want to be a better version of oneself⁉️ Regarding my origin, I wish to be more “corrupted” by so called “Bourgeois sentimentality” (without its hypocrisy), so as to heal my deeply repressed and wounded F mind (which made so many stupid or inhuman mistakes!)

Our original mindsets were at the two ends of the same societal rope; but we share one universal experience in common: glimmer/crush/infatuation/limerence/heartaches. It’s understandable that we approach it from the two ends and possibly reach, with different, individually appropriate mental/spiritual canes, our desired contentments/delights somewhere in the middle of the rope.

Typo:

“ (I had no clear knowledge of a crush until LwL),”
“ to distract from the lingering LE pain,”
“Thus, I doubt or disagree”
it’s done by our brain’s complicated wiring.

HJ,

Thank you for your response. What I’m about to say is only based on own case. Without extensively reading about everything on limerence by Tunnov, Fisher and DrL, I can only draw some suspicion or disagreement from my own case, and from limited obbservations on others, solely based on their words.

“I wonder if the realistic prospect of bonding is somewhat irrelevant “– many posters here have seemingly insurmountable barriers but go ahead anyway. “

“Many” does not mean “every”, I wonder if my complicated case could fall into an exceptional. I think “the realistic prospect of bonding” is relevant, because a crash does not necessarily lead to a full/crystallized LE, if one is clearly aware of insurmountable barriers and withdraw from it.

There was 8 months of peaceful period between Glimmer and my LE, until Dad’s sudden passing and Mom physical dropping into my space — the grief and cptsd pains together drove the initial retained crush (due to the barrier) into the full-blown LE. Yet, xLO was not consciously viewed as a potential romantic “partner” (no clear knowledge of a crush), but a surrogate father (my mind, not my neural system, even thought he was “safe” to play the unchosen role).

After finding LwL, I successfully “killed” a new glimmer in exactly one month back in the Feb—Mar, documented in Glimmer blog — there were clear, physical and mental symptoms of a crush, but no LE. With LwL’s warning, I kept staring at this crush and documented my emotions here. Then it was “killed”. My conclusion: barriers could kill Glimmer/crush before it slips into LE, if one is “weaponized” by the wisdom of LwL. There are a couple of other Lwlers here also killed their Glimmer before it developed.

Moreover, realistic prospect of bonding could curb the amount or intensity of LE desire and expectation — less expectations, less disappointments/pains in any walk of human life. In my case, the conscious desire for a substitute of just-lost father (the notion of EA did not exist in my system due to COO) was volcanic, while the neural system was running all over the places in and out of the presence of xLO, which caused my huge, unspeakable confusions. But I was content enough being just able to chat or monologue — more so as time passed, when LE was cooling down.

“I can’t remember your history (you write so much, sorry!) “

My rambling is engined either from my OCD (traced back to late childhood), or my attempt to distract rom the lingering LE pain, or to discuss with “new” mentality and expand my biased mind, or to affirm my thoughts/beliefs and self-validate, or to indirectly influence the Unconscious — then in return it affects the conscious mind and mood. I’m probably in “limerence” with LwL now (on T level)!

“But I think barriers to bonding are often conscious whereas the sub-conscious is a bit dismissive of them. “

True. LwL has convinced me that DNA drives do not care a bit about anything realistic or logical or moral! But in my case, in hindsight, the newly triggered cptsd pains and physical illness were so strong that they both temporarily repressed/covered the subconscious desire during the first half of my LE — My neck swalloned like carrying a chihuahua puppie inside by the time the unknown lymphoma in the thyroid and neck were incidentally, luckily removed!Consciously I was not aware of or affected by the “hidden” desire — I was daily struggling to physically breathe better before the surgery finally took place (during the pandemic lockdown.)

“In theory you can always bond, the story of people overcoming multiple barriers, or even initial disinterest’, to be with their ‘true love’ are popular for a reason i suppose.”

That’s in theory and have always happened in those “true love”romance fictions/stories/movies, which I believe has intensified some realistic LE sufferer’s pains — the pain of mimetic desires. In Red COO (not Buddhistic), human reasons and wills are believed to be able to tame, if not kill, all passions/unwanted, strong emotions. Romanticism has been unknown (bewildering) for hundreds of years in the East and only gained some favor in recent decades since Hollywood has “invaded” (but curbed down again)

From my experience, if a stereotyped Westerner and a stereotyped COO person are put side by side to experience a same LE, the latter would suffer much less LE pains than the former, because having less romantic notions or ideas, s/he would not know what to want, expect or suffer for, particularly with little/no concept of EA (lust/love is dominantly expressed by concrete actions, not “empty”/shapeless words) But LE’s physical/neural symptoms are present (I know by experiences); and as long as illicit/immoral PA is not involved, then little guilt is present.

“It seems clear to me that people going down the ‘black route’ of limerence are unconsciously doing a solo bond, it’s just a question whether the unconscious is deliberately or accidentally ‘flipping the switch’.”

In my case, I was consciously trying a solo bonding, my T brain thought, with a surrogate parent for comforting the grief and cptsd pains. 4 years later Later, when xLO subtly complained in person that “we”did not do much besides talking, I truly felt and looked dumbfounded — that’s how much the DNA drive was shuffled away.

I agree with DrL and Tunnov, that without the uncertainty or the pull-n-push dance, an early, smaller infatuation could die definitively. In my case, after the surgery, I totally believed that it was only sympathy for my illness that made xLO to have priorly interacted with me. So I cut off the very loose online communication/monlogues and mentally let it go (easier during 11 months lockdown-NC). But I was tiny bit curious to see what would happen next, and had an unshakeable intuition that it was not the end.

My intuition almost never failed — after 2.5 months of silence, xLO initiated an email which started a new cycle of pulling-n-pushing (for something casual) in the following 8 months, during which I protested and rejected this “casual thing”. But I tried in vain to cut the LE tie….

Thus, I double or disagree that it’s always limerents who are unconsciously doing a solo bond; it seems there is always an vague/elusive hope lurking for limerents “before the Unconscious flipped the switch — I believe it’s more deliberate rather than accidental switch; according to Jungian theory. Based on DrL neuroscience, it’s down by our brain’s complicated wiring.

“I struggle to believe we consciously decide to become limerent – at most I could accept that the conscious resistance to revolution is sometimes less…To stretch the revolutionary metaphor, we may be occasionally a little bit Menshevik, but certainly not Bolshevik.”

Maybe we are talking about orange and apple here. I don’t believe that anyone would and could decide to become a limerent! Based on Tunnov, Fisher, and DrL, I think limerent-type and non-limerent-type exist before Glimmer hit or in between two LEs. I don’t think anyone can tell for sure whether limerent has its genetic opponents, perhaps a neurological predisposition?

In reality, most people do not know what limerent/limerence is, how could they consciously choose or decide⁉️ It’s our ignorance of brain neurology and biology, social environment (strong Romanism’s influence or oppressive dictatorship), trauma backgrounds, and some other unknown factors that have driven limerents from a heaven-given Glimmer to a full-blown limerence.

Let me clearly understand your metaphor here: are you alluding Menshevik vs. Bolshevik to a limerents’ conscious resistance to a “revolution” called by LE? Are you stating that Menshevik would always/eventually lose to Bolshevik?

I grew up under the heavy hammer of a “Bolshevik” system, and understood (later by the comparison with the West) how it has collectively “traumatized” most of ordinary people (kids especially) who live(d) in it. If you had lived in “1984” under the Big Brother’s nose (nowadays the controlled and censored internet), you’d truly understand what Room 101 means❗️(what happened to Winston after hearing its pronunciation? Betrayed Julia (the aim of his bonding drive), which happened in COO’s past, realistically!) As the result of such a fear, the majority is forced to toughen conscious resistance against that biological bonding drive — lust/love, commonly referred as“a beast’s nature”. How/what would you feel if you grew up with such a term?

I now (after LwL) think in theory, in general, the conscious resistance may never beat DNA drives, but can definitely control their manifestations in realistic behaviors and actions, as long as one clearly realizes what’s going on in one’s mind/psyche, watch but not whip the elephant in the room.

I’m reluctant to demonstrate the ⬆️ statement with more of my case details.

“I am guessing this may also be a bit cultural, not sure what your COO is but if my guess is right it is like my english culture,”

COO (Culture/Country Of Origin) is in the fast East, under a strong dictatorship over the only survived ancient civilization. Ordinary people there are ten times more reserved than you Englishmen. Free/random thoughts/feelings expressions not only could bring embarrassment/mockery among one’s acquaintances, public (internet) humiliations/attacks, but also possible light/heaven punishments carried out by the government. You seem to know its economic policies well, how about its political ones implemented at individual level (40 years ago or now)?

“where public grieving and reflection are highly frowned upon, “

How could anyone dare to grieve any injustice or traumas caused by the system or the culture? Or openly reflect on the “corruptive, unhealthy, Hollywood sentiments/emotions”?

“and if you are then also introverted it becomes even more difficult. Even for an english person I am emotionally highly reserved so it is a triple whammy.”

That’s why LwL is a Haven for introverted limerents like us to safely ramble and destress… If we are not afraid of others’ invisible judging 👁️. Whatever words we put down here will have impact on our respective Unconscious

Snow

“In my case, it was clear from the beginning, there was no possibility of bonding, but the unconscious drive pulled me into it — not up to my choice (totally ignorance back then). However, I wanted and still want to harness the energy to improve my life overall, not just for a possible bonding next time.”

I wonder if the realistic prospect of bonding is somewhat irrelevant – many posters here have seemingly insurmountable barriersbut go ahead anyway. I can’t remember your history (you write so much, sorry!) , but I think barriers to bonding are often conscious whereas the sub-conscious is a bit dismissive of them. In theory you can always bond, the story of people overcoming multiple barriers, or even initial disinterest’, to be with their ‘true love’ are popular for a reason i suppose.

It seems clear to me that people going down the ‘black route’ of limerence are unconsciously doing a solo bond, it’s just a question whether the unconscious is deliberately or accidentally ‘flipping the switch’.

I struggle to believe we consciously decide to become limerent – at most I could accept that the conscious resistance to revolution is sometimes less.

To stretch the revolutionary metaphor, we may be occasionally a little bit Menshevik, but certainly not Bolshevik.

“Very true in my case — the urgent need for curing/healing the old trauma pains (triggered by Father’s death) surpassed the vague, subconscious need for pair-bonding”

I am guessing this may also be a bit cultural, not sure what your COO is but if my guess is right it is like my english culture, where public grieving and reflection are highly frowned upon, and if you are then also introverted it becomes even more difficult. Even for an english person I am emotionally highly reserved so it is a triple whammy.

Have to be fair to say that for all the “healthy grieving and reflections” and renewal work primarily done by my monologues (even after finding LwL), I had a passive, silent, and open ear of xLO (or an idea of xLO) “nearby” day and night…

Perhaps that’s my luck brought by the technology and the LE’s blind, foolish, and stubborn bravery❓

HJ,

Just want to personally respond your questions here:

“So it could be e.g. in response to a failed bonding with someone we deem a suitable partner, and then we launch into it anyway to try and harness the energy we need to improve ourselves to bond next time? “

In my case, it was clear from the beginning, there was no possibility of bonding, but the unconscious drive pulled me into it — not up to my choice (totally ignorance back then). However, I wanted and still want to harness the energy to improve my life overall, not just for a possible bonding next time.

“Or we just cant accept that the bonding failed, and deny its over until it is too late to get out.”

In my case, there was no such a duality — fail or success.

“Or in response to trauma it is a blunt force tool to process an identity crisis in the place of more healthy grieving and reflections mechanisms for people who are emotionally stilted?”

Very true in my case — the urgent need for curing/healing the old trauma pains (triggered by Father’s death) surpassed the vague, subconscious need for pair-bonding (ignorant to me at the time when lymphoma was also developing). In the end (up to July), “healthy grieving and reflections” are finished by a decisive dream with the presence of my Phantom inside me….

Now, I’m so much more alive than before the Glimmer hit, even its resource has completely gone — no duality of hope and despair! Yet, the energy is still present. 🎁

As a follow on, the recent post on “a sign that something is wrong” was I think the most recent new blog that gets at the balance between limerence as a source of renewal/revolution or as something we suffer from on it’s own accord.

https://livingwithlimerence.com/is-limerence-a-sign-that-something-is-wrong-in-life/

Flipping the question around – if not, and everything is fine, why be limerent and what do you do with this revolutionary energy? It could just be that some people have a faulty pair bonding ‘on’ switch due to genetics, or stuff in our development, or one that just gets triggered too easily, or even that we just have a faulty off switch.

But is there a case for suggesting limerence, while primarily a form of pair bonding, is also available as a sub-conscious tool to trigger in situations where a revolution is deemed to be required? It is sort of the nuclear option of the sub-conscious, which says I need to fundamentally change my persona, what are the tools I have available? This red button looks a bit scary, but I’ll take anything now?

I was looking at these two posts about renewal and a need for change

https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-limerence-can-lead-to-renewal/

https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-need-for-change/

So it could be e.g. in response to a failed bonding with someone we deem a suitable partner, and then we launch into it anyway to try and harness the energy we need to improve ourselves to bond next time? Or we just cant accept that the bonding failed, and deny its over until it is too late to get out.

Or in response to trauma it is a blunt force tool to process an identity crisis in the place of more healthy grieving and reflections mechanisms for people who are emotionally stilted?

And for some people where who get caught in tragic/traumatic circumstances of e.g. needing to rescue the damsel in distress, it is an over the top tool we use to keep picking at the scab of that wound? Or again it is less deliberate, and the only way those people know how to process that issueis using limerence, as but it just keeps sending them down the wrong route to healing and recovery.

I really like the concept of LOs as archetypes that limerents “call to a need in us to act in some way which will further us along our path of individuation”. It seems a very neat summary of what has been hinted at in different discussions in the comments In the last 6 months. I think Sammy and Snowphoenix have a better ability to self analyze than myself, but I definitely have a ‘type’ that I could probably examine to work out what it might say about my own individuational needs.

On the other hand, I’m with Mila, I am sort of at the end of a relapse-LE right now and trying to think less about things than more, so maybe not….

I would note the (for me) very interesting overlap with the revolution/individuation that occurs uring crises. I guess the phrase used these days is crisis vs. transition. I’ve commented elsewhere about how my limerence correlates very strongly to the transition or trauma phases of my life – early 20s, midlife, death of a parent, and that I think I have used limerence to cope or it has been triggered by the need to transition. The relationship remains unclear to me, but the link seems very strong. These are the periods I guess where we confront our unconscious needs and persona most directly.

Hey Sammy, many thanks for your thoughtful comment, the paper you cited, and for sharing your experiences with me. As a heterosexual woman I’m not sure I can add much to your own reflections, but it sounds like you’ve thought a lot about the kind of environment you grew up in and its balance of masculine and feminine. I’m sure this balance must play a role in our emerging psyches as we grow up, and so we may seek a better balance outside family life and, thus, in the relationships we have with other people.

I agree it can be tough for those around us to accept the changes we need to make in order to become the best version of ourselves, but that may also be because it reminds us that perhaps *we* have deep work we need to do ourselves. And we may not always want to do this!

And your thoughts about the spotlight and friends is interesting… I think many introverts might feel like you in that way – I am often most contented when it’s just the cat and me and I’m busy writing! Anyway, thanks again for your comment and all the best with your ongoing purposeful living!