I know all of that.

In Tom’s guide, he basically says there’s no research on this:

“After this initial description by Tennov, limerence did
not make much impact on the academic literature. A
few psychologists have followed up on the
concept1,2,3, and a recent series of studies into risk
taking behaviour amongst male homosexuals
referenced the term as a marker of romantic
obsession4, but the academic footprint is small.”

And he says something again like this in this post:

“There are aligned research studies – especially in relation to “passionate love”, which in many way overlaps with the concepts of limerence – so it is possible to extrapolate a bit, but you have to sift out the relevant parts from studies that were actually designed to test something else. In recognition of this issue, I put together a Guide to limerence aimed at professionals in the therapy and coaching fields that sets out what literature there is on limerence, and summarise the current evidence base.”

His guide doesn’t summarize the current evidence base at all. It’s just an ad for his book.

In this post he also links to one of Helen Fisher’s papers, but doesn’t explain that her experiment was literally supposed to be for this. There are also many, many papers on romantic love as an addiction.

By the way, Albert Wakin didn’t invent his theory of OCD. It’s just something he lifted from other people. It originally comes from people like James Leckman, Linda Mayes and Helen Fisher.

Here is a 2005 article with Dorothy Tennov and Helen Fisher mentioning OCD theory. https://www.oprah.com/relationships/the-science-of-being-love-sick-relationships-and-limerence

Also, just to answer your question, obsessive thinking and PLS scores are normally distributed: https://limerence.fandom.com/wiki/Limerence_and_Nonlimerence#Distribution

So there is no clear dividing line between “limerence” and “nonlimerence”.

@David.

I’m not entirely sure what point you’re trying to make. 🤔

Let’s walk through the evidence once again…

Helen Fisher specifically asked for volunteers who were “madly in love” as opposed to volunteers who were “in love”. She performed brain scans on these volunteers. The people she performed brain scans on did indeed turn out to be limerent in the true sense – upwards of 85% of their thoughts were consumed by love object and scans showed relevant parts of brains lighting up in response.

If limerents are people whose brains are consumed by love object 85% plus of the time, what do we call people whose brains are consumed by love object, say, only 65% of the time? Can limerence be experienced at different intensities, as one poster here recently suggested?

Both limerents and non-limerents have been known to use terms such as “erotic love”, “passionate love” and “obsession” to describe romantic attachments. Both limerents and non-limerents report frequent and pleasurable thoughts about a new love interest. What makes limerence distinctive as a state seems to be the fact (a) the limerent’s strong emotional reactions occur in the brain BEFORE a relationship is established, and (b) intrusive thoughts appear to bother/distract limerents to a disproportionate degree while having little effect on non-limerents.

Dorothy Tennov is perhaps inadvertently to blame for much of the current confusion around the definition of limerence. In “Love and Limerence”, Tennov seems to give at least two, somewhat contradictory definitions of the term. She seems to use it to mean both “falling in love”, i.e. a standard crush, and “falling madly in love”. However, she did clarify later on in her career that limerence is meant to refer to “love madness”. She wanted to study “love madness”.

Dorothy Tennov believed limerence to be a perfectly normal state of mind. She also believed non-limerence to be a perfectly normal state of mind. She didn’t regard either way of being as pathological.

Dorothy Tennov didn’t understand limerence as some kind of sensationalised obsession. Rather, she understood limerence as a mental state (an altered state of consciousness almost) in which the laws of limerence are actively in play. In other words, one would be reacting with either joy or despair to the real/perceived behaviour of love interest. Limerence is an interaction between one person’s emotions and another person’s real and/perceived behaviour.

Some of the stories in Tennov’s book don’t describe love madness. Some of the stories in Tennov’s book are more accurate accounts of anxious attachment. However, anxious attachment may still be a significant feature of limerence for some people. Limerence and anxious attachment can be overlapping conditions.

It seems Albert Wakin’s research can’t be taken seriously, and other researchers haven’t been able to replicate his results. However, I think Wakin’s theories are valuable as theories – he reminds us that limerence can be debilitating and that it can last decades for some people. However, the word “limerence” shouldn’t be reserved for only the most extreme cases. Wakin uses the word “limerence” for only the most extreme examples of the condition. This is perhaps why his work attracts so much backlash, even from people outside the scientific community.

Women’s magazines very likely use limerence as a synonym for “lust” or “new relationship energy”. This is perhaps because Western society hasn’t fully come to terms with the fact women have independent libidinal urges, and the topic is seen as “spicy” i.e. likely to sell more copies of magazines.

While the equation limerence/lust/new relationship energy may pass muster with some readers, a lot of limerent informants insist that limerence for them goes way beyond “lust/new relationship energy”. It’s a much more intense and almost spiritual experience. Also, non-limerents are no strangers to either “lust” or “new relationship energy”.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11151468_Defining_the_brain_systems_of_lust_romantic_attraction_and_attachment_Archives_of_Sexual_Behavior_31_413-419

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.00687/full

Dorothy Tennov says that limerence is “called love madness by the folk”.

So these are literally brain scans of limerence, according to Tennov’s writings.

Meanwhile, you’ll pay lip service in other articles to somebody like Albert Wakin who just goes around making things up, buried his original study, said he was doing brain scan experiments he was never doing, etc.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080210054316/https://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-02-06-limerence_N.htm

https://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/advice/a6341/love-sick/

Yeah, okay.

If you want the limerence to end, you could disclose your feelings and that would ultimately lead to one thing or another.

Disclosure is however not recommended because there is the possibility of a situation with HR and you being fired. If you don’t get fired, then there is the awkward-ness of what happens between you two, after the fact, so keep that in mind. If you think you can handle it, you’re a better man than me..

Unless you somehow can get things down to LC or even NC, you will probably have to keep up with the struggle. Keep telling yourself that. Avoid her at times, when you can. Maybe try to look getting into a relationship outside of work to get your mind off of this person.

2.5 years is a long time and she seems like the type you get along well with. Those feelings are so aggravating though, I get it. Especially when they chat it up with other guys at work. I hate that!! To see them smile and interact, it’s crazy how jealous we get.

Hi SL

I appreciate the feedback. I think if she lived anywhere near me I might have done just that. But I’m in Toronto and she’s in Montreal (5 hrs apart). We both have young kids and I’m not interested in a long distance or online thing.

Also – I think I’m just so exhausted by 2.5 years of limerence with her that I just desperately want the limerence to be over so i can regain my interest and focus on other things in life – including my kids (who I spend tons of time with but struggle to be present, especially recently as my mind feels hijacked).

Again – appreciate the feedback 👍

I’m not sure why you don’t just pursue it….Maybe subtly at first, since you work together, testing the waters, like asking her out to a friendly coffee and seeing if anything develops. She’s a peer, after all, not a subordinate or anything questionable like that. And you’re both available now.

I have been dealing with Limerence basically throughout my entire life… moving from target to target, going back as early as fourth grade. I’m now 48; it’s been a long run!

My current LO is a coworker who I have been limerent with for about 2 1/2 years. It’s exhausting. We are both senior leaders at the company and need to interact frequently, so the intermittent reinforcement schedule that limerence works on is really at play here. Even though we work in different cities, at any moment, I may receive a call or text from her. The anticipation of that keeps my emotions in a constant state of fight or flight all the time – and when we do make contact, if the interaction is positive, I rocket it into euphoria (for a while) then suffer mass withdrawal hours later… and in the event our interaction is negative or she seems not particularly interested in me that day, my mood immediately plummets.

In both cases, my ability to focus on work or family or anything in the hours after our interactions is extremely compromised.

I am a divorced man and until very recently she had been married – and that fact had actually helped somewhat keep the limerence in check I think (knowing she was unavailable). The fact she is now single has rocketed the intensity up. And as we have known each other for a few years and she knows I have also been through a divorce, she has confided in me and talked with me about her personal issues, which, of course I find thrilling in the moment (she’s confiding in me! She needs me!) but produces an even bigger crash afterwards.

This is not someone I want to pursue – we live in different cities and work as peers. But the reality of her new singleness has made things even harder. Also, I just got back from a holiday party with the whole team and saw her chatting closely with one of our team members who is also single. It produced crazy levels of jealousy, which is a new aspect to this.

Mostly sharing just because I know this community gets it and it’s helpful to get write things out. I appreciate any thoughts or wisdom any if you have around this – but mostly thanks for listening and my best to all of you out there dealing with this crippling issue.

Snow Phoenix,
I totally get it and offcourse respect your answer.

I am at gym again. It’s raining a lot, the weather is not very uplifting to say the least. But I assume that my normal work-out will lift my spirit.
Very good that you have a daily practice, I think that it is important in the turbulent times we live in.

The thing with my art is, you don’t need to have any talent to understand my creations. It works by only looking/gazing at it and you will be immediately touched by the energy that it radiates without any effort. That makes it accessible to everyone. I see it with my mom 😉

Wish you a good rest of the weekend!

Confused,

Thank you for telling me your Intuitive art and kind offer. At this point, I don’t want to use my email address with anyone here, except DrL, sorry.

I grew up and still work in a HE environment, so I can’t avoid using my head, obsessively playing with it sometimes (words, reasoning, imagining, poetry writing, etc). The balance of my head is my bodywork — energy/Qi flow, through dancing (external physical movement pushing international Qi) and my Combo meditation (internal mental focus/easing also pushing Qi). I can’t pass a day without using both body and mind. (I’m also learning to play piano)

In visual art world, I am bad in comprehending abstract artworks, which I understand are very fulfilling and expressive to artists themselves. I tend to appreciate meanings and psychology behind each art piece (of coursed based on my subjective views and interpretation) — being it a painting, drawing, sculpture, architecture.

Hope you continue feeling good at peace…

Snowphoenix,
At the gym again and reading your words.
I feel better today luckily!
Physically grounding also helps a lot! Now it is a bit cold to do it outside, so I use my groundingmat.

Have been listening to one of the videos on YouTube. Stoicism is really interesting, will watch more videos for sure.

I am not on any medication, try to stay as far away from it as possible.

For a long time I was unconsciously waiting for someone to come and save me. Eventhough I knew it was never going to happen. Somehow it felt comforting. Now I know it’s nice to have someone by your side, but you really have to walk the path yourself. No one can do this for you. A partner can be the cherry on ‘your own pie’, someone that you can have nice moments with. Just because being together makes your life even better, not because you are dependent on that person for your happiness.

At this moment my favorite way of creating is with waxcrayons and a hot iron. Intuitive art, I don’t need to use my head. It just appears in front of me on the paper, almost like magic LoL. I can never make the same piece twice. There are a lot of layers and beings in every creation. The funny thing is that every day you can see something different in the piece of art. When your awareness rises, you will find that different things are showing up for you. Also my creations can be turned in all 4 directions, it is only difficult with signing 🙂
If you would like to see an example, I could create something especially for you.
Just let me know, I have an anonymous e-mailaccount and maybe you could create one also 😉