Typo:

3 years earlier

“My being has…”, not “May being…”

LaR,

Your post is very valid, helping ease my J&T. Thank you. Based on your theory, I’m fairly certain that I’ve dealt with a Sensor, a mutual limerent, and a dodgy LO in a single Being, ET in the span of 7 years! Gosh, I so wished that I’d found LwL 3 earlier, when I casually heard the word “Limerence” in Youtube and watched one 10-minute video about it. I brushed it off quickly, thinking it was impossible for my “iron” J&T to be a limerent! Then, the rest has become a history….

I don’t feel/think it’s a matter of forgiving the other side, but myself for the weakness unable to walk away sooner (despite a sharp T, J), the inability to truly peel the ET facial mask off the Phantom (unexplainable F, P).

To survive well in my COO, one had to cultivate a lunatic kind of imagining ability and believe in one’s illusions, particularly when young, so to tolerant/endure the extremely oppressive, inhuman ideological environment. While this imagination power helped me survive my past traumas and heal cptsd in my painful LE, it also crippled me to sever the LE tie — imagined emotional intimacy with ET/Phantom was created and built, “realistic” and effective to the system for healing cptsd. That’s a kind of living “art”, invisible to the outside world, but my 👁️ could see it and may being has benefited from it.

That’s how many masterpiece writings, paintings, sculptures and music have come into existence and fruited (throughout the history), probably dabbed or soaked with blood underneath. One does not want to smash art pieces, but needs to integrate them into one’s reality, which then lies the huge challenge…

I wish I could forget more easily, so as not to swing between two dominant modes — either in regret and resentment or burst out poetic phrases/lines with the Phantom surging in my head….

Snow,

“I still hope that your MFF is NOT in LE with you; it’s a very painful spot to be in, which, as her true friend, you should really acknowledge and understand.”

You are correct. It would be the best scenario for her (and by the by, for me) if that’s the case. I do understand and acknowledge that. I will come back to that below.

The intention of what I am about to write now is to use a melange of my LE, yours with ET, and Cordelia’s coach story, to think more theoretically about limerence – in particular where the limerent is married/partnered and the LO is not. It isn’t all meant to relate / apply to any one of those stories, more a case of thinking what can each of us draw on to be helpful. Every LE is different.

For the limerent in that situation, they are very conflicted. They are pulled towards the LO like a moth to a flame. And at the same time the moral compass starts speaking to tell them to pull away (maybe for the sake of their SO, LO and/or themselves). So the push-pull dance begins. Hera and Aphrodite are telling the limerent opposite things. They are literally fighting their neurobiology, as you have put it, which finds ways to leak out of the eyes anyway. The LO, if they are a Sensor type especially, will enjoy the attention and may join in the dance. The LO enjoying the attention (‘limerence as the LO’ as you have put it) is different to the LO being prepared to cross lines into EA or PA, or even feeling attracted to the limerent. But it may blur and some LOs may feel confused and conflicted. Or other LOs may be open to EA or PA with partnered limerent, if their own moral compass is set differently. So what we can get is two confused and conflicted people dancing around each other in a confused and conflicted way, with a different mood and strategy each day, that the other reacts to and in turn the other reacts to that, etc etc. All this until one or the other pulls back and slows or ends the dance, which can take several tries. The limerent usually created the situation initially, then the LO might or might not have added to it. Or, you can have a mutual LE where both people are in effect limerent and LO to the other. I think these are the very hardest to untangle. Summary: often in both people involved, there is an awful lot of conflict and chopping and changing.

It isn’t always bad for the involved parties – like you said, limerence gave you many often unexpected positive gains. I know there have been plusses for both MFF and I. I just don’t know what her negatives have been, admittedly.

I don’t know if there is anything there above that is suggestive to explaining or partly forgiving ET or other LOs behaviours, for your own wellbeing? If not, please don’t dwell – I was just riffing some thoughts to see if they could help. I accept it may not work.

With regard to me caring for MFF in our situation, I have lots of additional knowledge built over years, of her life and of her ‘tells’, that I haven’t shared on LwL, that I can and do use to help me make kind and wise decisions. She is a direct person and signals pretty clearly to me (verbally and not) times when she does want me around and times when she doesn’t. I am able to read and respond to both sets of signals. I can also ride out the cycles of that now, without letting it get to me too much – just see it as natural undulations and not dance around it. We’re in a good (and not dangerous like six months ago) place, but I am keeping very mindful and will make sure that is ‘mindful of her’, not only about how it affects me.

Sunday wishes through this ghostly cyberspace 🫂

@CSC, I believe you are referring to the phenomenon Dr. L refers to as “rewriting history.” This is the tendency to make our relationships with our SOs out to be worse than they really are due to the limerence. No doubt, I have done this at least a little bit, but the spark had been gone from our marriage for quite some time before I first became limerent for LO #1 nearly five years ago.

During that time, I’ve spent all or most of my time being limerent for someone. I’ve only really ended my limerence for any one LO through transference to someone else. I agree with your suggestion that it’s best not to make life-altering decisions while in a state of limerence, but for me it seems like I’m just going to end up Limerent for someone else. I think this will keep on happening to me until I can get out of my marriage. Waiting to be in a non-Limerent state might take many years.

Having said all that, there are some encouraging signs that I may be turning the corner with LO #3. I am starting to be a little hurt and angry towards her. I’m really starting to realize she doesn’t care about me and maybe doesn’t even like me. She usually just lurks on our group chat and doesn’t say much, but she recently liked a comment from someone shooting down some plans a few of us made to go to an event I know would be right up her street. It kind of surprised me, but it was something I had spearheaded. I thought for sure this was something she would want to attend, but apparently not. Somehow, that and her not accepting my Facebook friend request made me realize she probably doesn’t like me. She also doesn’t come out much with us and never shares her other plans with our group (our core group shares everything). As my friend said, I should focus more on our core group of friends (including LO #2) and avoid worrying so much about the rest of them, who are more or less just acquaintances. All of this is helping in my recovery. I don’t know whether I can end my limerence without transference but we’ll see.

You asked whether I had ever been on my own. Until I met my wife over 20 years ago, I spent the vast majority of my adult life outside a relationship. I was quite used to being single, so I don’t have any worries there. In many ways, I would love to be free and single again, and I wish I could get my freedom back. However, there is that tendency to want to pair bond.

LaR,

“T can’t see what his story is, but F acknowledges ‘there must be some story there that he could make sense of to justify what he has done’. “

Just to think these questions on your own: Has he got “satisfaction” for what he had done? Does he enjoy doing them? Or he has done what he did perhaps driven by his health conditions? I detected several times that Mom got some satisfaction (smirks on the corner of her mouth or in her cold eyes) or a sense of power after she made me lose my composure or argue with her with anger or agitation. But afterwards the narc insecurity still hung in her eyes. The only way to deal with a narc is to be stoic outside and Stoic inside.

“SO is all those things but can be pushed beyond it if she doesn’t get things in return that suit SF styles. It can be hard to get her to look past F and use T.”

Then accept what/who SO is and don’t expect too much T from her. On one cannot change another.

MFF has instinctive NT responses but hides a very empathic F under it (I have access to it now, but it took a long time and much trust building).

Sounds like you’ve got two “wives” compensating each other 😁

“Let me check I understand. Do you mean it would be futile for you to know *now*, after the event? Or would have been futile even if he’d told you *at the time*? “

Yes and Yes. In relationship department, I am not “here and now” type perhaps due to the past traumas; otherwise, I could have taken willing, fresh stallions as lunch or snack for my entire adulthood….

“And why does it only apply to the first four years, not all seven?”

After 4 years (after he complained in person that “we did not do anything” which really confused me at the time) , his own pet limerent (orLO) appeared along with his black lies (my T worked like Sherlock Holmes — also accurately spotted his other female ‘LE’ admirers at work). They went on regular rendezvous all the way until I left the job; but he still would not let me cut him off – kept saying he could offer me more and did try.

I hinted to him twice that I knew about his rendezvouses behind his SO (who had been also weekly “platonically helping” one of her old romantic flames for that guy’s psychological crisis/stress, which upset ET but he couldn’t stop it — he told me all these in person). He did not care about my knowledge, I certainly won’t report it to anyone else, except LwL ghosts for a spotlight on an infinite variety of human/Sensor conducts and natures…😉

My intuitive T clearly knew what ET was doing and thus resisted all the following temptations (Mila truthfully pointed out that I did not want to be a 2nd side 🐥, in addition to my own oath of decades), a satisfaction of which would bring much bigger emotional pains (not a stranger to me), I’m certain of it! Who wants the possible EA reciprocation — another 20 years of online LE “friendship”❓

ET is not the idealized, nonexistent Phantom, for whom I would break all my oaths and get lost in the Galaxy. But my F & P walk(ed) on their own path despite the strong, intuitive T —an incomprehensible human complexity.

I still hope that your MFF is NOT in LE with you; it’s a very painful spot to be in, which, as her true friend, you should really acknowledge and understand.

❄️,

“Meanwhile, I’d find some side ways to help your parents”
👍working on it

“Can you see that from another angle, he did/does NOT choose to be where he was/is, suffering his medical conditions?”
T can’t see what his story is, but F acknowledges ‘there must be some story there that he could make sense of to justify what he has done’. There is more I really can’t say for now, but stay tuned.

(Health warning dear silent readers, the next paragraph is total alphabet spaghetti if not party the the history of my dialogue with Snow, so is best ignored)

“Your MFF sounds more rational, and SO empathic/sympathetic, am I right?”
SO is all those things but can be pushed beyond it if she doesn’t get things in return that suit SF styles. It can be hard to get her to look past F and use T. MFF has instinctive NT responses but hides a very empathic F under it (I have access to it now, but it took a long time and much trust building).

“Oh, you’re wrong here, I very much want to, even just as a good friend of 7 years.”
Makes real sense, thanks for explaining more. Equally the phantom/mask bit makes sense. I think you can back your reasons for not reaching out with the situation as it is, even though it feels hard.

“Your LO2 was available at the time, right?”
On and off. I had a try and we had a couple of dates but no more. She had a few guys interested and to use MJ’s word, was ‘orbiting’ me. There was also an appropriacy problem where I was her boss at work. A year or so later when that wasn’t the case, she circled back and propositioned me. By then I had an SO so I refused the proposition with extreme difficulty.

“it’s futile in my case to even nail down what ET ever felt and acted the way he did for the first 4 years of my LE.”
Let me check I understand. Do you mean it would be futile for you to know *now*, after the event? Or would have been futile even if he’d told you *at the time*? And why does it only apply to the first four years, not all seven?

“It’s always helpful to vent out… gush, how I appreciate you LwL ghosts here…”
Yep, good to vent, bounce, riff and rant. I know I’m still quite stuck, but I’d certainly be stuck at an earlier and less helpful understanding of it all without LwL and all the many 👻👻👻👻 who give their time and wisdom. I honestly think if I hadn’t come here, I would have cracked and disclosed to MFF, and then goodness knows how it would have panned out.

LaR,

“My parents are getting on and I worry how they’re the SOLE people (medical pros aside) holding him up. His therapist can only work with what he gives him – which won’t be the truth.”

I’m afraid to say that you will have to mentally let go of how your brother is dealing with therapist, and let therapist works with his set of lies. It’s futile for you to be concerned. Meanwhile, I’d find some side ways to help your parents, if they’re willing to listen to you. Otherwise, let it go. Just feeling compassionate about them.

“If anything I wish I could find more compassion for him. SO can hardly believe how much I am seeming to ‘ignore’ the situation and protect myself. “

Can you see that from another angle, he did/does NOT choose to be where he was/is, suffering his medical conditions? Just like LE’s son? Letting go internally — not reacting to (nearly) impossibly controllable situations is not “ignoring” or selfish, it’s a sounding/wise way to take care of one’s own mental health. Stoic are not a bunch of selfish people sitting around, not taking vitreous, realistic actions to help others and themselves. Stoicism discipline is about building/wearing this internal emotional shield protecting one’s own mind, so as to able to deal with external stresses with concrete actions.

“When I key into the S, F perspectives on it (is this just another way of referring to the deities?!), it feels a lot lot more complicated. This is more the perspective that SO provides me with.”

When it comes to choice for whom we use our S,F, I, P sides, we need to use our T to judge and select. To Narcs, you can’t apply your I, S, F, P, but NT. For HSP or introverts, we need to let our T move back little. Your MFF sounds more rational, and SO empathic/sympathetic, am I right?

“That dream of yours about ET has a lot of relatable elements to many dreams. “

It’s so obvious, I marveled at that my Unconscious did not give more complicated images or narratives to interpret.

“The seeking/awareness of someone but not being able to quite see / find / reach them is really common. “

It IS inevitable considering it’s only five months, compared to 5 decades in another case here.

“It probably reflects a lot of what you feel about ET now – still ‘around’ in your mind, out of reach for now but also not totally closed to reach “

It’s like an indigestible object glued in your system causing no pain or joy anymore, but you just detect its existence yet unable to remove it. It’s not closed to reach, but reaching for what? What could I get, realistically or metaphorically in my situation? In this case, the Fate’s hand might have played beneficial role in a long run.

“if you wanted to (I know you don’t want to, I am just speculating where your mind might be).”

Oh, you’re wrong here, I very much want to, even just as a good friend of 7 years. But I know I can’t befriend him presently since my LE is not completely over with some residual anger and regrets. On the intellectual level, I annoyedly, clearly know ET is not the Phantom, on an emotional/subconscious level, I can’t take his vague, familiar face/mask (to what?) off the Phantom. When his realistic images occasionally popped into my head, I felt “fearfully” alienated.

“Very occasionally, I still have dreams like this about my LO2. It is no less than 23 years since I saw her. If you believe we all have a “one that got away”, then she’s that person for me. “

Your LO2 was available at the time, right? While you can say she’s “one that got away”, I can never say this — the only case in which LO was totally unavailable to begin with. My cptsd needs drove me deeper into the obsession, after initial big but calm Glimmer. Then, while the cptsd needs were gradually unloaded, the rest (instinctual drive?) surfaced from the LE swamp to breathe?

Regarding your discussion with Cordelia, it’s futile in my case to even nail down what ET ever felt and acted the way he did for the first 4 years of my LE. My strong imagination could will a favorite soothing “truth” (with all spoken or written evidence). However, in the reality, it does not make any difference in helping remove the indigestible object. My S, N, F, P do not bend over to T, I can’t will their “behavior” managed by the Unconscious.

It’s always helpful to vent out… gush, how I appreciate you LwL ghosts here… Let’s see what Time and Space would do to this case.

Dear Kiki,

I am so sorry you are going through this. I want you to feel better. Since you say that you are having feelings for people your own gender, your psychiatrist included, you may want to consider getting a psychiatrist who is a male and working with him on these things. Perhaps that way you won’t be as distracted/limerent? And he can help you. Are you taking any medication? What you are going through sounds a lot like depression because I too have depression and know what it feels like to feel “empty.” I want you to know you are not alone and we are hear to help you and listen to you. As a medical professional and a recovering limerent myself, I want you to know there is help out there. Please don’t give up. Let’s try everything and see if there’s something out there that can help you! 💙

I could not help feel it’s Dr L’s voice…

“are you and “Prefers to remain silent” the same person?”

No.