Thanks ABCD.
Yeah, not impossible. Possible. But I know it’s awful. Truly.

I had been feeling stronger, but today, really felt sad. Sad I couldn’t make it with LO, wrong, rejected…somehow, I messed up my life and missed the chance to attract someone I really enjoy…all these crappy feelings.

So, yeah, I get it. And I encourage you to hang in there….It’s hard to internalize that interacting with LO is a kind of delayed/latent self-torture. But, when the pain comes, it is clear, that’s what it is. I plan to limit contact this week, even if it feels like absolute crap. It’s going to be a sad time for me, too. I understand.

CSC

LaR,

Ha, got scared 😳? Just gave you an example that sometimes a woman seems to be flirting openly, it only means teasing, going nowhere. As far as I recall, I almost never flirted in reality especially with my good or limerent friends, it’s mean/cruel to them; I had to talk/walk on a balancing rope when interacting with them occasionally.

I agree with you that the ultimate work of removing LE has to be done by F/S/N. Like Bewitched says, one really has to want an end at an emotional level. T only takes are external behaviors/actions. It’s a huge challenging to emotionally remove a clearly dualistic LO/ET in one’s head, let alone a good, such as your LO/MFF. (ABCD doesn’t know his unavailable LO enough to spot both sides).

You know how difficult when I tried to use T to remove F/P — spirituality related, in the past two weeks? Can’t tell you details here but I ended up in my pcp’s office and could not find any nameable causes for the worrisome symptom….

Even this early morning when I barely woke up, I had nightmare-like images and thought about ET/LE… that contradicted nice stuff in my mind during the waking hours…. So I gave up any intentional efforts, just letting my T go to the hell, while expecting and watching my F swing up and down, left and right…. In the end, it’s mostly my own Phantom holding the upper hand…

Everyone is different. With a personal cptsd and COO background (takes one or two books to tell), one’s relationships get a lot more complicated. I’m still chewing Schreiber’s article with a heavy heart. Anna and I could related to it very well.

Feel free to send you longer messages, from which I’m sure I could always learn something new.

@Snow,

Happy hour here, 2 drinks for the price of 1. But thank you for the warning. I don’t want to be added to the very exclusive LwL club of confectionary being aimed at my britches!

I agree about T. It can (for me) *moderate* all the F ‘fireworks’ but can’t stop them. It does get a bit easier with time (for me). F is needed to do the later stages of healing (the disspelling of the LO from front of mind). I don’t think T can. Do you disagree?

I drafted you a long old message about that sort of stuff (T vs F), Snow. But I saw that last week was heavy for you and thought I’d keep it lighter and maybe come back to it anon.

@Trifles and @Serial Limerent

Thank you both for giving thoughts on the murky and intriguing world of flirting. Life would be terribly boring if all of that was too predictable. I think we all agree that we need at least comfort and liking (small
l) of the person to play-flirt. The rest … well … who knows 🤣 I got what you both were saying though.

Trifler, I told Adam once that in a bar, if you go to the refreshing room for a second, some other dude would buy me a drink (happened in reality), but I can safely take the 3rd glass from you..

LaR, I agree that T could execute all LE recovery actions and even watch F reactions. I was only saying that T can’t control chemical/neural collision that even 3rd party could see/sense when you coolly chitchat with LO/MFF (me with ET — my neurons was on fire!).

Hmmm… Double “Sex on the Beach”🍹🍹, you’d better guard your breeches… 😉

I resist the concept of an EA unless there have been disclosures and actual attempts to turn it into more than a friendship. I have always written long letters/e-mails to friends as well as LO’s or SO’s, and like sharing deep secrets etc. with them. But if the two people have been expressing their attraction and feelings for each other in some way, and it’s mutual—the major element—then “EA” is more fitting.

I do have a gay best friend, lol. I didn’t know this when I first started getting to know him; because of where we met, this was something he kept quiet. (I don’t want to get into more detail because I don’t want to “out” him in case anybody from there stumbles across this.) When he told me, I remember I started opening up a lot more to him because I knew a PA was not a risk. My SO is not the jealous type, but if he asked questions, it would be easy to ease his mind.

As for flirting—I’m one of those who will flirt with guys I have feelings for and just to be friendly. But my flirting is mild—smiles, laughs, teasing. And I don’t flirt with just anybody, either; usually I at least find the guy attractive. But whether it means anything—I’m not sure how to describe how to tell. Maybe it’s more intense, a certain look in the eyes. Of course when I was single, I might ask the guy out, or do other moves, making it obvious. 😉 But with barriers, you don’t want the guy getting the wrong idea.

‘The customer is always right’

“Cheers – one each for Snow and Phoenix!”
Oops, too late, you already took the order!

Snow, thank you. I’m sure I would get my answer with that test! Actually, I already know I couldn’t stop texting for 10 days! (I would have to justify it to him by saying that it isn’t good for me to get so close to someone who’s so far away.) I’m not denying that we are kind of “stuck” with/to each other now.
And LaR, I have raised the issue of too much contact with him, and he took it well. Also meaning: he didn’t seem worried about there being anything wrong with so much contact/an EA. But soon we had slipped back again to our regular frequency.

Regarding when the joking is serious… And a-ha this was also just a test question? Sure…😉 This is not the answer you need, but I actually rarely flirt like that. I have to feel very comfortable with the person. However, your LO sounds like she is probably different. But I guess you got it – you find out with your response. Or I think my eyes probably give it away. (How nonchalant do I seem afterwards?) But that’s a dangerous thing to say here on LwL where we read everything into eye contact! I text-flirt too of course, and there you have no idea whether it’s with intent or not – unless you know me well. However, I agree with Snow – take the first option! And don’t take her drink order! 😂

As for the random question – Sure, some of my friends have had gay best friends. But I think women can feel comfortable with other men as well. It’s easier to feel comfortable when said men are partnered. In my “student era” group of friends there’s a guy who is a huge flirt but we who know him well would never fall for him. And he doesn’t even try. I like to think he respects us too much. Or he knows we know too much. Besides he’s too busy chasing other women. So that’s another example of a “safe guy”.

🍹🍹 Cheers – one each for Snow and Phoenix!

Snow,

“Even if uncertainties, pull-n-push are, physical interactions are gone (in my case), the LE memory/dynamics still sit/act in mind or dreams. In all your cases, as soon as you interact with LO, neuro-chemical exchanges/collisions continue, out of your control. What is T going to do about it?”

My view – there are bits my T can do, that are useful, but they only get me so far. T allows me to cope with day to day interactions and not get overwhelmed / keep my friendship with her steady. As I frame it for myself, when such interactions happen, the more reactive and uninhibited F is more like my biological non-exec brain, which is pulled in like a magnet and then would over-react, present leakage signs, etc. T can balance that and say ‘No, you don’t have to get pulled into that today. Just look at the evidence. Everything is OK. Just be, like you have every other time”. But I do need to recognise the ‘privileged’ position that I’m in, to be fair about this. That is – MFF has provided enough oxygen/reinforcement for my T to be able to now be in that calmer state, and I have done some serious heavy-lifting here at LwL to train myself too. It probably won’t be the same for everyone.

As for longer term removal of the limerence, I agree with you that only F can achieve that, and only when it is truly ready to. T cannot will it away although it too can get better at sitting with it and not questioning so much.