Sammy,

“I think the concept of solitude might be especially attractive to limerents for no better reason than limerents actually have something decent to think about while solitary! (Their immensely gratifying limerent fantasies, of course!) “

I forgot about our signature specialty — reverie! But I was quite observant even during my weekcare where other kids hopped around, played jumping games, or rehearsed dancing, I remember my feelings while watching them alone.

“she decided to live one hundred days in solitude, not talking to a living soul.
…. so I think her solitude was quite picturesque as well as spiritually edifying!!

I wish I could have such an opportunity. I regularly take 3-5 days of solitude during my vacation breaks without speaking to another single soul (except one word to cashiers), or travelled alone to European counties where I don’t speak the language. I loved Vipassana retreat where one’s whole system “shot down” during 10 days of Nobel silence.

“I have uttered my opinion on this — so much of them are made up in the West… I was shocked from my “neutral” perspective…”
“I disagree with you a little about sexual differences, but I don’t want to bicker with you about it. “

I acknowledge physical and sexual differences, but without in a male’s body, I’m not quite sure what and how biological differences make our male and female traits different. I merely thought of personality traits when I used the word “neutral”, since that was how my two perfectionist parents raised me, a single child who needed to be a girl as well as boy.

“I think there probably are core male traits and core female traits. “

I’m still not quite clear about this “core male traits and core female traits” and their correlation to our biology, emotions and thoughts. When you get a chance, could you elaborate on it?

“But I think a lot of people “fall between stools” in terms of their personal make-up. I also think a lot of “core male traits” or “core female traits” might be exceedingly unhealthy for the individual man or the individual woman to embrace.”

You’re a bit abstract here, I need examples to understand.

“So maybe it’s good for people to reject some of their basic biology if they feel that basic biology isn’t really serving their needs?”

I don’t at all reject my basic biology, just feel my personal traits are not typically feminine although I don’t look boyish or even “neutral”.

“I’m surprised to hear non-Western cultures would accept or promote neutral views of sex/gender.”

Not my COO, just my intellectual parents. My COO is quite macho, I can’t stand it. After coming to the West, I never fell in LE with a man from COO, but only keep old friends.

“I was under the impression that non-Western cultures are even more highly gendered than those in the West, and even more interested in limiting women’s opportunities.”

You’re quite right here!

“It might be shocking for Western women to hear that their sisters in the East are experiencing something different from what is assumed.”

Just one of few sisters. I was an crooked bird more than often dragging along, slightly out of a flock.

“Westerners imagine Eastern women are still heavily oppressed while Western women are gloriously liberated. (I guess there’s a lot of falsehood to both assumptions. Eastern women may not feel oppressed and Western women may not feel liberated). “

There are always exceptions. Your imagination here is quite accurate for the general mass of the East. However, most of Eastern women don’t know the West enough to feel or realize that they’re oppressed. They need experiences of living inside the West to know that they are not liberated as they think.

I grew up within college campus and exposed to Western classical literature, particularly French and Russian, at an early age, so I carried an Eastern face but a hidden “traditional” West mind. After coming to the West, I had an easier time than some of my COO peers to adapt “new”. Still, getting a BA and MA in liberal arts helped tremendously in “rewiring” my original COO brain….

“I will say this – I don’t think sexual desire is a particularly gendered experience, and maybe that’s what lies at the heart of all our confusion.”

After experiencing this longest LE with so many confusions and back-n-forth, I agree with you more on this point. I even anticipated and assumed that a gratifying PA with LO would not resolve my LE, just like my previous ones. The bigger issue is underline cptsd, my desire for PA or even EA felt petty compared to the cptsd’s gigantic wings.

This is a unique critique I’ve ever heard about emily Dickinson’s work! My lesbian literature TA at college were so passionate about her work, yet did not analyze from your perspective, fascinating and very human!

“In writing poetry, I’ve done the same thing with my male LO/s. Sometimes, the imaginary woman in me loves the quite-real man in him. Other times, the quite-real man in me loves the imaginary woman in him. So I don’t see my love as “gay”, strictly speaking. “

Your poetry must sound melodiously colorful! I wish I could read some of them. I still read at least one of others’ poems everyday.

“I see my love as this constantly-shifting, ever-evolving, impossible-to-define thing that can only find consummation in the realm of fantasy, where people aren’t hindered by ownership of gendered bodies. “

At early stage of my all LEs, I could not help picture two kids, a boy and a girl, randomly wandered in edgeless grassfields, hand in hand running, giggling, dancing, all in innocence, sincerity and joy…. Like those in Mayizaki’s films…. I wrote a poem about my early reverie in the latest LE.

“(Perhaps that’s where the concept of soul mates originally comes from? Someone long ago realised that love might transcend the demands and the limitations of bodies?)”

Perhaps…. Without knowing what soul exactly is, I believed a possibility of soulmates. However that mysterious glimmer is still unexplained — why at some, but others?

“But I digress”

Roam as far as you wish….

@Snowphoenix.

“I thought the philosophical ideas of Solitude and feminine perspective of Solitude t is very appealing and soothing, making me want to hug Her, since She’s been with me A LOT since my childhood.”

I think the concept of solitude might be especially attractive to limerents for no better reason than limerents actually have something decent to think about while solitary! (Their immensely gratifying limerent fantasies, of course!) 😁

During a very intense phase of limerence but well before my nervous breakdown, I was working in the public library and became fascinated with the idea of solitude. I actually read this book – by a female author, a lesbian – and as an experiment she decided to live one hundred days in solitude, not talking to a living soul.

This particular lady was lucky enough to live in a country that snows and she was also lucky enough to have access to a little cabin in the woods all to herself, so I think her solitude was quite picturesque as well as spiritually edifying!! 😜

My mother sometimes would drive me to and from work at the library, and my mother being my mother would always want to fill every single moment with chatter. And, in a limerent state, I found my mother’s inability to embrace silence incredibly irritating. I even told her once that “silence is golden” and she was not amused.

My mother even made me cry once because on the way to work she just wouldn’t let up about how I wouldn’t talk to her. She compared the process of getting words out of me to extracting teeth. I was a very uncooperative dental patient, apparently! She accused me of “putting a premium” on words. In my relationship with my mother at that point in time, I really felt like I was under siege or a prisoner of war. (What on earth does this woman want from me? Doesn’t she understand I am a … shock, horror … quiet little introvert?) 😲😆

“I have uttered my opinion on this — so much of them are made up in the West… I was shocked from my “neutral” perspective…”

I disagree with you a little about sexual differences, but I don’t want to bicker with you about it. I think there probably are core male traits and core female traits. But I think a lot of people “fall between stools” in terms of their personal make-up. I also think a lot of “core male traits” or “core female traits” might be exceedingly unhealthy for the individual man or the individual woman to embrace. So maybe it’s good for people to reject some of their basic biology if they feel that basic biology isn’t really serving their needs?

I’m surprised to hear non-Western cultures would accept or promote neutral views of sex/gender. I was under the impression that non-Western cultures are even more highly gendered than those in the West, and even more interested in limiting women’s opportunities. It might be shocking for Western women to hear that their sisters in the East are experiencing something different from what is assumed. Westerners imagine Eastern women are still heavily oppressed while Western women are gloriously liberated. (I guess there’s a lot of falsehood to both assumptions. Eastern women may not feel oppressed and Western women may not feel liberated). 🤔

I will say this – I don’t think sexual desire is a particularly gendered experience, and maybe that’s what lies at the heart of all our confusion. For example, during her lifetime, the reclusive American poet Emily Dickinson, wrote countless love poems for her lifelong female LO (her sister-in-law, Susan Gilbert). Some of these love poems were written from a man’s perspective; some were written from a woman’s perspective. Some of these poems ostensibly addressed a male love interest and some of these poems ostensibly addressed a female love interest.

I don’t think Emily was intentionally trying to mislead us about her sexual orientation. I don’t think Emily even felt religious guilt or shame about her love for Susan. I think Emily just felt such an incredible range of feelings for her female LO that these feelings could only be expressed in a wide variety of ever-shifting personas.

In writing poetry, I’ve done the same thing with my male LO/s. Sometimes, the imaginary woman in me loves the quite-real man in him. Other times, the quite-real man in me loves the imaginary woman in him. So I don’t see my love as “gay”, strictly speaking. I see my love as this constantly-shifting, ever-evolving, impossible-to-define thing that can only find consummation in the realm of fantasy, where people aren’t hindered by ownership of gendered bodies. (Perhaps that’s where the concept of soul mates originally comes from? Someone long ago realised that love might transcend the demands and the limitations of bodies? But I digress). 😇😁

@Sammy,

“It’s a beautiful poem. Thank you for sharing. I’d say the style is Alexander Pushkin meets William Bulter Yeats. But the poem also has a distinct feminine edge to it, which reminds me of Anna Akhmatova, and maybe even Sylvia Plath?”

Have read Pushkin (a lot in my teenage in my mother’s tongue), Plath (not a lot) , Akhmatova (new to me) nand studied Yeats a little bit, I still can’t analyze or compare styles of poetry or critique on language of writing in English, though I understand them well. I thought the philosophical ideas of Solitude and feminine perspective of Solitude t is very appealing and soothing, making me want to hug Her, since She’s been with me A LOT since my childhood.

Every coin has two sides, both necessary. With only or too much Solitude, one loses not only vital connections with other human beings and the world at large, but oneself — without social context, what or who one IS? A piece of breathing flesh?? On the other hand, without sufficient Solitude, one is urged/pushed, or takes ride with, or constantly mingles with human currents/affairs of all sorts, one has little time or space to reflect, contemplate, examine within, discover, understand and befriend with “Thy Self”.

Just as the poems defines, that Solitude is “provider and nourisher”, we nurture, digest, or recover our mind and soul by taking leisure with Solitude. If one can’t embrace and befriend with one’s Solitude, one canNOT truly befriend others; if one canNOT feel comfortable or grounded just by being with oneself (from time to time); one tends to end up needy in someways while being with others — a philosophy I did not understand before and then tested true.

“Maybe gender differences are all made up. “

I have uttered my opinion on this — so much of them are made up in the West… I was shocked from my “neutral” perspective…

“But I think female writers sometimes portray negative emotional states a lot better than male writers do. “

As aforementioned, I don’t see Solitude as negative emotional state, but a healthy necessarily for each human being to go through and embrace (not all the time, of course). If more people could get along with solitude, there would have less limerents, perhaps.

“Maybe male writers are less prone to such negative emotional states in the first place, or can’t tolerate sitting with the negative emotions long enough to compose a poem? “

I actually learned a lot about solitude from male writers (the majority of classical books and poetry were written by males), It seems that male writers or characters get along better with Solitude than many females — tend to be chatty or petty in books and in reality — one thing I found hard to deal with. I’m an introvert, and didn’t know why and how to chitchat in most of social settings….

“Maybe there are some forms of sadness or suffering that are uniquely female?”

I think so, and perhaps the same is true in male? I suspects there are varied forms in different cultures, personalities, and physiologies.

“I like the last two stanzas. Specifically, I like the last six lines.”

I very much like the last 8 lines; but when I read it, I said to the Phantom, “I could not ever totally abandon my Solitude; otherwise I would have never been able to climb up from the unfathomable infernos on my own repeatedly…. She is an enemy as well an ally — two sides of a coin…”

I can’t believe I missed this. Thank you so much Adam and MJ for this conversation. Wow, it’s sobering to hear both of your perspectives. MJ, I hope the youngens see your story and think twice before making life-changing mistakes. I appreciate your willingness to share your experiences.

Let me offer one thought, MJ. You said you “… want to be head over heels in love with a perfect Woman like LO, and never ever ever ever become limerent for another Woman again.” Can I change it a little for posterity? How about…

“I wish I could have been devoted and faithful to my ex wife instead of getting distracted by other women.” Does that hold truth?

MJ, I know you are a Christian man. The atonement of Jesus Christ already paid your debt. You made some big mistakes, but you can learn and move forward. You can (and in my opinion already have) become a better man.

Sammy,

Happy New Year of 2024!

Thank you for your kind and understanding replies, it’s thoughts provoking as usual on my end, keeping my mental aerobics for its health!

“…and I think – yes – this “forced inauthenticity” or “volcano of trauma” as you say can make one more prone to limerence (as one tries to figure out an authentic version of self, or a version of self that’s a much more natural fit than the inherited version of self).”

Yes. I think Identity crisis is larger than limerence (and many other psychological issues), since one (un)consciously searches, within or without, one’s authenticity in a fixed or fluid social environment. This subconscious desire is often so strong that it surpasses other human worldly and biological desires, aside from air, food, water, clothes,and sleep. I never got a grounded satisfaction (perhaps lasted for 3 days) from all material gains, professional achievements, and “romantic” relations, including a marriage.

“I do think limerence can be for some people an attempt to reclaim and re-integrate lost parts of the self – an attempt to be the person one was born to be.”

Totally true! In my case, unaware causes of my oppressive and repressive authenticity dismays, I blindly fell into LOs and LEs one after another, taking it for granted (it’s not my arrogance, but an emotional-orphan’s desperate wish), “Ah, finally one person could possibly understand, accept whoever I was…”, just because they showed strong interests or attraction to me (after my glimmer at them)! Then I’d eagerly, unreservedly reveal myself inside out (over sharing), as if tightly grasping the chance to “reclaim and re-integrate” my hidden Self while still feeling safe/un-judged. Therefore, unlike average limerence for a romantic EA or pair-bonding PA, each of mine went (totally unconscious prior to LE #7) after liberating my authentic self deeply buried within, without me even knowing ( little interested) who LOs actually were and whether capable of handling my “life-or-death” quest.

“It’s interesting that our brains/bodies almost won’t let us relax or “take it easy” until we successfully complete this process of self-realisation, or renewal, or rebirth, or whatever one wants to call it. There’s a part of me that wishes I could be happy being mediocre.”

I don’t think it’s matter of being mediocre or special, it’s just that some of us, particularly with childhood traumas or mental conditions (Asperger and other intuitants), have “life-or-death” needs in “self-realization” or individuation process, which can be accomplished through one’s profound contemplation and interactions with others in given social settings. Solitary comforts us, but doesn’t help our individuation quest.

“You’re definitely not the average limerent, and I apologise for implying you are.”

I wish I could be an average limerent, content with normal romantic attraction or PAs. Being non-average often put me in confusions (why turned down PA offers?) yet an clear awareness of my impossible tall-order in this latest LE.

Now, I have almost stopped (a habit takes time to be erodicated) searching authentic ME from without. I do not NEED (welcome though) anyone else (particularly an LO) to understand, validate my authentic me, but my Self — the most important! Once I completely healed my cptsd wounds, other parts of me would shine in their natural light…

Dear Petunia Skunk,

That’s wonderful! I am on the same boat. I am learning to find the emotional connections with my dear friends who are ladies that will listen, understand and support me. So glad you found what works for you 🤗 and that it’s improving your marriage as well!

I enjoy emotional connections with my same-sex friends (I’m hetero). I consider it like platonic affairs. We go on dates, we eat dinner, see films, go for long walks. I open my heart and soul. But they are my friends. When I get home my husband asks me how was x? I tell him ‘good’. I can’t explain and don’t want to share my many intimacies outside of marriage. These are safe from infidelity as I am not attracted and neither are my friends. Women friends are true gifts to women I believe. As Esther Perel says, we now expect our partner to fulfill everything for us – sexually, intimacy, best friend. Etc. it’s not possible. Go find other loves! NB connecting with friends and getting out of the house and out of my rut has helped me get over an LO. I feel I was seeking dopamine as I was bored/lonely in my relat up shop. My marriage has improved since I’m getting out more and happier in myself.

She actually hasn’t touched me on the leg or the chest since I asked her to stop many months ago (or rather, since I told her that she better not keep doing it if she didn’t want me to get too tempted and try something, which wasn’t quite the same as telling her to stop, but fortunately she took it that way). Now it’s limited to brief touches on the arm or shoulder sometimes, which I take mostly as an affectionate sign of connection rather than as a sexual invitation, which is good. And I do like those kinds of touches and honestly probably won’t tell her to stop, because they do a lot to reassure me that she does still care about me and feels warmly about me – it’s amazing how much I still care about how she feels about me and how much I worry about her losing all her feelings for me – it’s like even though I don’t want our relationship to go anywhere, it’s still just really important to me to know that she cares about me. I’m sure that makes sense to everyone here even if it doesn’t really make sense. And my anxious attachment is so bad, anytime I don’t hear from her for a few days or she acts coldly for a little while, I get myself all worked up thinking that somehow she just forgot all about me and doesn’t have any feelings for me anymore. And those little touches bring my anxiety levels down tremendously and reassure me that we still have a connection – I think she might know that and perhaps that’s partly why she does it.

Overall, my goal for the new year is to be less anxiously attached and not sweat the day to day stuff so much… I mean, we disclosed our feelings over a year ago now and she’s still around and still chooses to spend time with me (if not always as much as I think I want), so I know that realistically it’s pretty unlikely that all of a sudden she’ll have a change of heart and just stop caring about me forever… I think that a lot of times when I push boundaries it’s really me just seeking reassurance from her that she still has feelings for me, so if I can just accept that her feelings are solid then I can try to relax a bit about not feeling like I have to text her every single day or do romantic things to try to get her to express affection back. I think the goal for both of us should be to just enjoy some warm friendly interactions, to support and help each other out when possible, and let the feelings just be understood but not overtly expressed.

My other goal for the new year is to focus less on my relationship with LO and focus more on trying to be the best version of myself I can be – be the best husband and father I can, work hard to excel in my job, get in great shape and do some cool athletic stuff, play a lot of music and paint and read good books, keep the house clean and eat healthy… and then just trust that everything with LO will fall into place just fine. After all, when she was first attracted to me I wasn’t chasing her or trying to attract her at all, I was just living my life and being myself and she was drawn to me, so if I want to keep her attracted to me then it’s better to just focus on being the best version of myself I can be, rather than acting all anxious and desperate chasing after her. I guess that’s a lot like purposeful living, even if I’m still trying to hang on to this relationship rather than trying to totally end the limerence.

Yeah, I think she’s battling inside herself. I look at my own recent actions with my LO and it’s not that different–trying to back up, keep things under control, but be reassuring at the same time, while a piece of you really really wants to give in.