I’ll be candid with myself; there’s a part of me that believes he must have some feelings for me. I recall a conversation where he explained that it’s not about not caring but an inability to invest emotionally. It happened after I sought his support, and he expressed concerns about emotional dependence.

Omg. This is me to an absolute T. How did you discover this about yourself? What do you think is missing that we do desperately seem to need?

@Allie 1.

“… I think most LEs start becuase we believe at some level that LO truly sees us (the self-idealised version), likes us, desires us, etc. That felt so mind alteringly good and made me feel so much more confidant for a while. I never wanted that feeling to end.

Letting go of that fantasy has made me feel less desirable, less likeable, less interesting, etc. I started to see myself, other people and life in general in such a negative light. (no doubt also fuelled by current hormonal situation 🙂 )

So I am fighting my way out of depression currently and it is a slog. Reverting my focus back to how others are and trying to perceive them fully, rather than how they perceive is helping me to “relinquish that ideal image of self”. The “self” is so fluid and riddled with contradictions anyway.”

Thank you so much for chiming in, Allie. Sorry to hear you are going through a bit of a rough patch. I don’t necessarily think I was right in what I said. I was merely trying to grope towards some deeper truth that might be in there somewhere…

I think sometimes, in limerence, we can sometimes feel overjoyed because our LO sees our idealised self-image, and we want to keep being the person they see us as. However, this would frame limerence itself as a fairly narcissistic activity, an exercise in self-aggrandisement…

I think there is another, less narcissistic explanation for enjoying the admiration of an LO. What if one’s LO simply saw a more AUTHENTIC version of us, and we want to keep being that more authentic version of ourselves? So, at the end of the day, we’re not striving for perfection or superiority but striving for greater authenticity?

I love that you say the “self” is fluid and riddled with contradictions anyway – I can definitely relate to that.

I think limerence, funnily enough, didn’t reinforce my ideal version of myself. Limerence did the opposite – limerence shattered my ideal version of myself, and I realised that my “ideal self” wasn’t me at all.

Let me try to explain what I mean. During some point in all my limerent madness, a platonic male friend (definitely not LO!) told me that he thought I was “acting gay”. I think “acting gay” was his euphemism for “acting lovesick around other males”. And this particular platonic male friend wasn’t really a big fan of that. He was a bit put off by my lovesickness directed toward the same sex, and wanted to know what happened to the old Sammy, since he had known me a long time. In other words, he thought his old mate was “acting out of character” and he was a tiny bit disturbed.

The “acting gay” comment from my friend offended me hugely. The reason I was offended was that up until that point, “acting gay” had never been part of my self-concept or self-image. I simply didn’t see same-sex attraction as having any place in my personality structure at all. I was only aware of cutesy-poo feelings for the odd female.

However, I’m a very honest person. Although I resented my mate’s insinuation greatly, eventually I had to admit to myself that, yes, maybe, I occasionally have fleeting feelings of attraction toward the same sex, and somehow I needed to work that knowledge comfortably into my self-concept. (The alternative would be a nervous breakdown, or worse, which is basically what happened).

So, in a nutshell, limerence destroyed my rigid concept of self i.e. someone who could never be accused of “acting gay”. I was forced to get in touch with my own emotions and my own aesthetic perceptions and admit that, yeah, sure, sometimes I find certain men nice-looking, and that’s okay. I can have fleeting feelings of attraction toward the same sex without believing that I’m a terrible person. I can recognise the beauty of both sexes, if you like!!

When I denied/repressed my feelings of attraction toward other males, beautiful males wielded incredible emotional power over me. I felt incredibly happy when they were nice to me. When I slowly began to integrate my feelings of attraction toward other males into my self-concept, beautiful males lost some but not all of their emotional power over me. Beautiful males were still a potent reward, but not the kind of reward that could derail a whole life.

Same-sex attraction has made me think long and hard about what makes people attractive in the first place. I have reached the conclusion that male bodies aren’t intrinsically amazing and female bodies aren’t intrinsically amazing. Male sexuality is also nothing to write home about. I know how all the plumbing works, etc, etc. “Whoop-de-doo. Nothing to see here. Move along, people.” 🤣

So if sexual power doesn’t reside in the body and if sexual power doesn’t reside in sexuality, where does sexual power reside? I think true sexual power/sexual allure resides in PERSONALITY. In other words, it must be the personalities of certain people that create desire and not physical attributes or functions. Bodies alone, or sexuality by itself, doesn’t seem to inspire great heights of passion.

I meant: “far more transcendental”

@Sammy

Let me attempt to answer your and my own questions. I can’t remember the overwhelming information and their sources; if I’m wrong, Dr L will correct me.

Self (capital): the concept in Jungian’s theories.

Ego (capital E): resides in the front lope of the brain (powered by blood and Qi flow), serving as a logical and sounding director, directing other parts of “Self” to run daily mundane and achieve future goals. It involves Libido — creative and executive force, along with other instinctual drives.

ego (small e with narcissistic traits): self-centeredness, vanity, pride, competitiveness, jealousy, revenge, etc. Everyone has some, but dosage varies. I believe ego traits derive from some childhood “traumas” or insecurities from loss, abuse, emotional neglect, abandonment, loneliness, overly-spoiled, etc.

“Is limerence really about ego? Are our egos somehow involved in the whole “drama”? Does something have to happen to the ego in order for one to extricate oneself from LE, if that is ultimately something one wants?”

From the point of neuroscience, limerence involves our brain seeking for that addictive rewards — pair-bonding, mostly sexual, which comes with the glimmer. However, from the point of psychology, In LE, our limerent mind craves for a reciprocity for something far more trandecendent or something we can’t point a figure at — when they are unfit (personality) or unavailable (don’t limerent for us). Here I think ego is involved, in all possible manners as its definitions indicate.

ego is only a small part of “Self”, definitely NOT “some ideal images”, and NOT our Ego. We could use power of Ego and some ego traits to help us exit LE (like my “monologue” with the 35% narc traits in my other earlier post to you. )

Our Ego knows LE — NOT limerent’s volcanic passion, needs to go; our small ego traits could be tool in assisting such a painful process — search and see “subjectively negative” traits in LO. If we stick around long enough with our calmer, logical eyes — NOT that tsunami gaze, we would spot their weakness or vulnerabilities. NO LO is a unicorn!

Of course, we could still choose to “like/love/appreciate” them for who they are, but I think the intensity of LE would be reduced or gone; an uncontaminated friendship could possibly grow.

“My very tentative thoughts on the question, based only on my own personality, is that maybe the limerent i.e. yours truly, is holding onto some ideal image of self by indulging in the LE. And in order to exit LE, I must learn to relinquish that ideal image of self?”

That’s what I felt with the glimmer, but eventually I realized it’s our instinctually desired Beloved, that was projected onto LO by the delusional LE eyes. Therefore, during our exit of LE, we do not need to relinquish what we hold dear in our Self.

Allie 1 – YES! Me too – since going NC with my last LO (I’ve decided not to call him a ‘current’ LO any more in an attempt to move on) and realising a lot of stuff about limerence and having my already fragile sense of self fall apart, I’m feeling very negative about my personality too. I just wish wish wish I was different. And hormones – urgh, tell me about it! I don’t think peri-menopause is helping me at all!

Please forgive my frankness here, I’m speaking to myself far more than you lovable ghosts here…

To be desired, well liked, or highly respected is universal (used to be a survivor necessity). But if we so “desperately” desire to “be desired” in order to feel validated, who is out there to desire “to desire” and “to validate”? Is our LO the person who desires or is able to desire more than “to be desired?” Without knowing them as round person (packed with dualities, vulnerabilities and a large gray area in between), how do we know they can grand our wish “to be desired” authentically, and if we can grant their wish “to be desired” authentically? If the other side asks the same set of questions we ask, how would we respond?

Not meant to brag here, as a LO more times than an lamenting limerent: when seeing so much eagerness and efforts to get my affections with limited concerns or cares about how they could fulfill my deep wishes (some did not even bother to ask or simply unable to give), I got very bored (aside from gratitude), despite I so dreamed to have a large circle of FULFILLING friends ever since 4 when I began to have memory.

If seeing a strong sense of Self (w/ self-conscious vulnerabilities) in themselves, independent from the external world — materials + other people’s individual lens, then admiring and respecting them became natural and easy, even if the glimmer from my side was absent. That’s how I’ve remained a long-term loyal friend to some of them, if they wished to be. Do we wish to be a respected and admired friend to our LO, if pair-boning is somehow impossible?

In my HMO, to have a grounded sense of “Self” (always evolving) is the first, most important personality trait before we go out there to have our deepest desire — “to love and to be desired”, fulfilled.

I’m still trying to strength my insufficient self-confidence; thank you for your help by listening to my ramblings here. Even if you’re not listening, I still imagine you do — That’s good enough!

rather than how they perceive *me* is

“My very tentative thoughts on the question, based only on my own personality, is that maybe the limerent i.e. yours truly, is holding onto some ideal image of self by indulging in the LE. And in order to exit LE, I must learn to relinquish that ideal image of self?”

I really relate to this, thanks Sammy. I think most LEs start becuase we believe at some level that LO truly sees us (the self-idealised version), likes us, desires us, etc. That felt so mind alteringly good and made me feel so much more confidant for a while. I never wanted that feeling to end.

Letting go of that fantasy has made me feel less desirable, less likeable, less interesting, etc. I started to see myself, other people and life in general in such a negative light. (no doubt also fuelled by current hormonal situation 🙂 )

So I am fighting my way out of depression currently and it is a slog. Reverting my focus back to how others are and trying to perceive them fully, rather than how they perceive is helping me to “relinquish that ideal image of self”. The “self” is so fluid and riddled with contradictions anyway.

Sammy, I hope this appears in the right place – I had to go up miles to find a reply button!

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there as far as I’m concerned. My sense of self has always been, I’m realising, so absolutely tied up with how others view me, that if I try to let go of that I have no idea who I am. And that’s scary. Who am I if no-one desires me?