Here’s a recent Q&A I did for the channel Mental Wealth.
All things limerence discussed and analysed.
Enjoy!
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Comments
Mariesays
I “fell in love” with my therapist.
At first I considered it transference (I knew of the phenomenon, as it is quite common), in fact, that is how I disclosed my feelings early on to him (when I summoned all my available courage), by telling him I had transference for him—as a person, not just as my therapist. As time progressed, my feelings definitely deepened to the point of limerence.
I was not aware of the concept of behavioral addiction to another person, and have considered that I genuinely have loved my therapist as a person. This has been reinforced by the fact that my therapist was unaware of limerence himself. In my enthusiasm, I wanted to get to know him, so most of our therapy sessions were very animated and interesting conversations, with me largely taking the lead and drawing him out. It was very obvious that he enjoyed this almost role reversal, which of course, reinforced my limerence.
I have never felt he manipulated me in any way. Rather, he was completely inexperienced in dealing with this phenomenon, although, and to his credit, I am fairly certain he consulted a colleague or supervisor at some point to understand what was happening in our sessions and to him personally. In one session, he did state to me that I was in love with the “idea of him” rather than as a person. I disputed this because I did know quite a bit more about him personally than the average client. There was much information about him online; he was a published author and we were able to discuss his rather complicated concepts that I have been genuinely interested in and could grasp even as a lay person. I knew a lot about his personal life.
He didn’t actively contradict me so I believe he also was experiencing some degree of limerence for me, which, as things deepened for me and I became entrapped in my emotional addiction, eventually caused me to beg him to tell me if he felt some reciprocal feeling. At least then I would know if I was perceiving things correctly, or whether it was all in my imagination.
Because he could never really give me a definitive answer either way, I concluded he was indeed experiencing some degree of reciprocal limerence, so along with the uncertainty, things further enflamed for me. I believe that the fact that he was my therapist was the primary complicating factor. Likely he felt he could not divulge his attraction to me, as it is generally discouraged, and also realized it could put him in a precarious position professionally. Perhaps it would only inflame any limerence of his own if he admitted to it. Maybe he also liked me enough not to want to hurt me, hoping to let me down gently at some point. The third complication was that he was in a committed relationship, and he made no secret of it. He often referred to his girlfriend in conversations. At times, I wondered if it was to discourage me, a gentle reminder perhaps, although I think before he realized the extent of my feelings, he talked of her quite innocently because she was an important factor in his life. In the more intense stages of limerence, it was a painful reminder that he wasn’t really available, a reminder I generally ignored, in large part because he continued to seem interested in me.
I believe he also found me physically attractive, possibly sexually desirable despite a large age gap, by some of his spontaneous comments (or I was hoping that’s what his comments meant). I had several crises where I told him I couldn’t come back…instinctively I knew this was a losing proposition that could cost me my sanity. But I could not stay away. I have “bipolar disorder 2,” a predominant tendency for depression (though capable of hypomania under certain physical or emotional stressors) but have been stable for decades. I have learned over the years how to understand how I am affected, to know the symptoms, triggers and red flags, and to act to prevent dysfunction. Ironically, utilizing therapy has been a go-to in times of jeopardy. At any rate, after three attempts to break from him, and deepening alarming plunges from high to low, which indeed were not essentially bipolar mood swings as Dr. Bellamy points out, but rather the neuropsychology of addiction (yet corresponding logical emotions in my mind since I saw the possibilities of a relationship, but also the daunting impediments, therefore the joy and the sadness—not simply neurochemical mood swings as I would still argue) I did successfully tell him in person after my last session that I could no longer continue. Because “I liked him too much.” No doubt, by this time, he totally got it. And he probably saw this as the eventual end as well, but I do believe he has been affected.
At the very least, I think it must be valuable learning for him–a therapist with only a few years under his belt, and with no previous experience or even knowledge of limerence. It was the only solution for all three reasons: 1.he was my therapist. 2. It may or may not be a genuine love rather than simply limerence, but leaving is the only way to find know what direction it might take. And, 3. because he is in a committed relationship, although he did tell me he was insecure in it (! imagine a therapist admitting that to his client—I was rather incredulous, and again, it signaled to me that there could be a chance for “us.”), the only way he can assess whether he is satisfied enough in his relationship with his girlfriend is if I am essentially out of the picture and not an influence. If there were any hope for a true love relationship between him and me, it would be critical for both of us to know whether or not he would stay with his girlfriend. So all in all, leaving therapy was the only solution, heartbreaking as it has been.
I do feel I could love him “outside” of therapy, but that could only be determined if we could see one another, which I have told him I would like to do, starting out as friends. I have made my feelings very clear, that I do feel a love of some kind for him, but I have let go of a need for a specific outcome. I truly want him to be happy, not conflicted or compromised. So both of us need time and space.
I would be lying if I said I didn’t still have hope. But I believe that I can live with the situation as it is now. Although this has been the sweetest dream, I can’t live in an imaginary world indefinitely. Several months has been enough of a ride. I’m lucky I’m not someone inclined to endure torture indefinitely, but am driven to find resolution when in enough distress (including thinking I could have a heart attack!)
I do not intend to go back for additional reason that I no longer feel that I can be simply a “client”since I never actually fit the role very well! I originally went to see him as a buffer against the stress of what is a terrible political situation to me, to able to express my fears and feel some protection and given reminders of how to navigate/enjoy life in perilous times. I never anticipated this “love bomb” of limerence happening, but at the same time, I deliberately wanted to be in therapy with a man, because I also felt a need to learn better to communicate successfully with the opposite sex. (There may have been a minor element of self-setup, though it if true, it was not conscious, intentional, nor a manipulation). I’d always felt unable to freely do that, to be fully myself with a man in past experiences. I certainly got what I wanted in that respect, and maybe all that “practice” with him will be useful, as my hesitancy to hang back and hide myself in opposite sex relationships (and conversely be too “forward” as I have thought) may have been overcome in significant measure! And therapy could also be considered successful in that it has been an almost complete distraction from the ever-increasing anxiety over the political scene. Although with no longer seeing my therapist, I may need another one. Not a bad idea either, as he advised as well, to keep negotiating my way through the limerence and not relapsing.
I do have to add that when I realized I was in crisis state because of my therapist, I did consult twice with an old therapist! Consulting a therapist about your therapist, what could be more ironic!
I also want to mention that when I did virtually beg my therapist for his answer as to whether or not he had personal feelings for me, and that I was in crisis, he recommended the possibility that I may need a different therapist. He was always professional in my opinion; he never crossed boundaries, as we both verbally emphasized clear respect for in our theraputic context, and I cannot fault him for his confusion due to his own unanticipated feelings.
And yes, I have never felt so alive with another person as I have with him. Impossible to overstate how powerful this experience has been. I am following the path as it leads me, aligned with my principles, and armed with this most serendipitously and providentially discovered information on a phenomenon I previously did not know existed. This knowledge has restored my confidence that I am indeed strong and sane. It has given me compassion toward my therapist, and has allowed me to let go. Where it may lead, I am not yet certain. Only time will tell, but nonetheless, I feel I have returned to myself in good measure, a self I have been pretty happy with from the start. My heart doesn’t hurt quite so much now.I feel I did the best thing not only for myself, for both of us, and I live in my faith that having told him my truth, it can manifest in nothing but good in the long run for both of us. No matter what the outcome.
Thank you if you have managed to plow your way through this very lengthy comment. It helps to reiterate my reasoning to myself, and maybe it will help someone else to understand their perplexing situation.
I am not sure I can put anything articulate together to reply to you, but I did want to acknowledge your heartfelt words and your very interesting story.
I too find it helpful to write things down. I am very slow to process things and I need to go over them repeatedly.
I am glad you are making so much progress and I hope you continue to do so.
I did expect to fall apart, and felt horrible for a very brief time. I will make a visit to my old therapist just for support in my decision, to help keep my resolve. But apparently, thank God, the peace of making a painful but necessary decision has overridden all else. So I’m going with it.
I’d be lying if I said I didn’t still hope we would meet up again somehow or other, could stay in touch, and try out friendship, but I’m not obsessing, agonizing or pining.
And I do miss him when I think of him, as is to be expected.
Welcome to this forum, and thank you so much for articulating so clearly your story.
I have experienced (with the -ed part somewhat in question) similar issues, and appreciate the renewed discussion of this topic. Up to now, I have been focussing on a different aspect of my limerent experience, but plan to return to this topic within the next few weeks.
Thank you for your reply.
Actually, the link you quoted was the very first blog I read when I became aware of the phenomenon of limerence. Yes, it certainly was excellent.
Interestingly enough, I thought that I would fall apart after breaking with my therapist. However, I feel quite stable, free, and like my pre-therapy self, a person generally happy with my daily life. When I think of him, I miss him, even cry—he is one of those truly “good LO’s,” but I’m not overwhelmed as I was before, and I don’t feel obsessed.
I would readily agree to see my now ex-therapist on a friendship basis if he were willing, though he has never seen ex-clients after they were done. I would like to have a more complete picture of who he is, though I think I doubt that he would be essentially different than he is as a therapist. And, admittedly, I would like to see if we got along, had other things in common, such as a shared outlook on life, or laughed at the same things..compare what I have intuited about him with the real person.
But as I said, I don’t put my hopes on any outcome. I just have to trust that doing the right thing for myself will lead me to a good place.
DrL,
As to the video, I think it’s a good summary. This site and the blood conversations have helped me. I still have issues with using the same word, limerence to describe both the initial, normal way of falling in love for half the population and then also the addiction behavior. Beyond that, I question whether limerence in any form is normal behavior. I wouldn’t and haven’t advised my oldest son to fall madly in love with a woman. Instead I’ve always encouraged him in what he was already doing; taking it slow, getting to know the other person, making sure they’re a match in personality, financial, sexual, family goals… I don’t think our ancestors had to pair bond to have sex and partner up so I don’t agree with the idea that limerence is biologically based to propagate the species. But it’s just my thoughts. I know how to scientifically know the answer but that sort of experiment isn’t going to happen. I guess the closest thing you could do outside of ideal conditions is study the primitive tribes if any still exist. Again, very impractical and just isn’t going to happen.
Someone brought this up in another post, so I’ll mention that I listen to your videos at 1.8x playback. You don’t have to do anything. Your speech is fine. It’s not ADHD on my part. It really means nothing other than I can listen and process your voice at a faster rate so it takes half the time for me to listen to this Q&A lecture for example. That’s a good thing for both of us. I’ve been listening to podcasts forever and somewhere way back I heard that radio stations and podcasts had figured out that they could take out the pauses, etc. (using an early form of AI, also not sure if all know that radio is not live anymore) and shorten the broadcast and then stick in more ads with the time savings. People like me then did it ourselves to listen to more podcasts. Anyway …
Although I have indeed “fallen madly in love (or limerence),” I completely agree with and espouse your advice to your son: to go slowly, get to know the other person, see what the common interests and goals are, etc.
I hadn’t followed this advice in younger days. No regrets, thankfully things seem to have turned out for the most in spite of youthful impetuosity—or call it stupidity—though undoubtedly we endured a lot more suffering was than might have been necessary. But live and learn…
At this point in my older life, I would not act otherwise as you have encouraged your son to do.
Marie,
In my marriage of 35 years, while it took a long time and lots of needless pain and suffering, we’re finally in a loving marriage. So the crazy way of getting married did actually work out for me.
Recognizing and overcoming the LE is what took it to another gear, from acceptance to loving gratitude. At 56, still living and learning.
I “fell in love” with my therapist.
At first I considered it transference (I knew of the phenomenon, as it is quite common), in fact, that is how I disclosed my feelings early on to him (when I summoned all my available courage), by telling him I had transference for him—as a person, not just as my therapist. As time progressed, my feelings definitely deepened to the point of limerence.
I was not aware of the concept of behavioral addiction to another person, and have considered that I genuinely have loved my therapist as a person. This has been reinforced by the fact that my therapist was unaware of limerence himself. In my enthusiasm, I wanted to get to know him, so most of our therapy sessions were very animated and interesting conversations, with me largely taking the lead and drawing him out. It was very obvious that he enjoyed this almost role reversal, which of course, reinforced my limerence.
I have never felt he manipulated me in any way. Rather, he was completely inexperienced in dealing with this phenomenon, although, and to his credit, I am fairly certain he consulted a colleague or supervisor at some point to understand what was happening in our sessions and to him personally. In one session, he did state to me that I was in love with the “idea of him” rather than as a person. I disputed this because I did know quite a bit more about him personally than the average client. There was much information about him online; he was a published author and we were able to discuss his rather complicated concepts that I have been genuinely interested in and could grasp even as a lay person. I knew a lot about his personal life.
He didn’t actively contradict me so I believe he also was experiencing some degree of limerence for me, which, as things deepened for me and I became entrapped in my emotional addiction, eventually caused me to beg him to tell me if he felt some reciprocal feeling. At least then I would know if I was perceiving things correctly, or whether it was all in my imagination.
Because he could never really give me a definitive answer either way, I concluded he was indeed experiencing some degree of reciprocal limerence, so along with the uncertainty, things further enflamed for me. I believe that the fact that he was my therapist was the primary complicating factor. Likely he felt he could not divulge his attraction to me, as it is generally discouraged, and also realized it could put him in a precarious position professionally. Perhaps it would only inflame any limerence of his own if he admitted to it. Maybe he also liked me enough not to want to hurt me, hoping to let me down gently at some point. The third complication was that he was in a committed relationship, and he made no secret of it. He often referred to his girlfriend in conversations. At times, I wondered if it was to discourage me, a gentle reminder perhaps, although I think before he realized the extent of my feelings, he talked of her quite innocently because she was an important factor in his life. In the more intense stages of limerence, it was a painful reminder that he wasn’t really available, a reminder I generally ignored, in large part because he continued to seem interested in me.
I believe he also found me physically attractive, possibly sexually desirable despite a large age gap, by some of his spontaneous comments (or I was hoping that’s what his comments meant). I had several crises where I told him I couldn’t come back…instinctively I knew this was a losing proposition that could cost me my sanity. But I could not stay away. I have “bipolar disorder 2,” a predominant tendency for depression (though capable of hypomania under certain physical or emotional stressors) but have been stable for decades. I have learned over the years how to understand how I am affected, to know the symptoms, triggers and red flags, and to act to prevent dysfunction. Ironically, utilizing therapy has been a go-to in times of jeopardy. At any rate, after three attempts to break from him, and deepening alarming plunges from high to low, which indeed were not essentially bipolar mood swings as Dr. Bellamy points out, but rather the neuropsychology of addiction (yet corresponding logical emotions in my mind since I saw the possibilities of a relationship, but also the daunting impediments, therefore the joy and the sadness—not simply neurochemical mood swings as I would still argue) I did successfully tell him in person after my last session that I could no longer continue. Because “I liked him too much.” No doubt, by this time, he totally got it. And he probably saw this as the eventual end as well, but I do believe he has been affected.
At the very least, I think it must be valuable learning for him–a therapist with only a few years under his belt, and with no previous experience or even knowledge of limerence. It was the only solution for all three reasons: 1.he was my therapist. 2. It may or may not be a genuine love rather than simply limerence, but leaving is the only way to find know what direction it might take. And, 3. because he is in a committed relationship, although he did tell me he was insecure in it (! imagine a therapist admitting that to his client—I was rather incredulous, and again, it signaled to me that there could be a chance for “us.”), the only way he can assess whether he is satisfied enough in his relationship with his girlfriend is if I am essentially out of the picture and not an influence. If there were any hope for a true love relationship between him and me, it would be critical for both of us to know whether or not he would stay with his girlfriend. So all in all, leaving therapy was the only solution, heartbreaking as it has been.
I do feel I could love him “outside” of therapy, but that could only be determined if we could see one another, which I have told him I would like to do, starting out as friends. I have made my feelings very clear, that I do feel a love of some kind for him, but I have let go of a need for a specific outcome. I truly want him to be happy, not conflicted or compromised. So both of us need time and space.
I would be lying if I said I didn’t still have hope. But I believe that I can live with the situation as it is now. Although this has been the sweetest dream, I can’t live in an imaginary world indefinitely. Several months has been enough of a ride. I’m lucky I’m not someone inclined to endure torture indefinitely, but am driven to find resolution when in enough distress (including thinking I could have a heart attack!)
I do not intend to go back for additional reason that I no longer feel that I can be simply a “client”since I never actually fit the role very well! I originally went to see him as a buffer against the stress of what is a terrible political situation to me, to able to express my fears and feel some protection and given reminders of how to navigate/enjoy life in perilous times. I never anticipated this “love bomb” of limerence happening, but at the same time, I deliberately wanted to be in therapy with a man, because I also felt a need to learn better to communicate successfully with the opposite sex. (There may have been a minor element of self-setup, though it if true, it was not conscious, intentional, nor a manipulation). I’d always felt unable to freely do that, to be fully myself with a man in past experiences. I certainly got what I wanted in that respect, and maybe all that “practice” with him will be useful, as my hesitancy to hang back and hide myself in opposite sex relationships (and conversely be too “forward” as I have thought) may have been overcome in significant measure! And therapy could also be considered successful in that it has been an almost complete distraction from the ever-increasing anxiety over the political scene. Although with no longer seeing my therapist, I may need another one. Not a bad idea either, as he advised as well, to keep negotiating my way through the limerence and not relapsing.
I do have to add that when I realized I was in crisis state because of my therapist, I did consult twice with an old therapist! Consulting a therapist about your therapist, what could be more ironic!
I also want to mention that when I did virtually beg my therapist for his answer as to whether or not he had personal feelings for me, and that I was in crisis, he recommended the possibility that I may need a different therapist. He was always professional in my opinion; he never crossed boundaries, as we both verbally emphasized clear respect for in our theraputic context, and I cannot fault him for his confusion due to his own unanticipated feelings.
And yes, I have never felt so alive with another person as I have with him. Impossible to overstate how powerful this experience has been. I am following the path as it leads me, aligned with my principles, and armed with this most serendipitously and providentially discovered information on a phenomenon I previously did not know existed. This knowledge has restored my confidence that I am indeed strong and sane. It has given me compassion toward my therapist, and has allowed me to let go. Where it may lead, I am not yet certain. Only time will tell, but nonetheless, I feel I have returned to myself in good measure, a self I have been pretty happy with from the start. My heart doesn’t hurt quite so much now.I feel I did the best thing not only for myself, for both of us, and I live in my faith that having told him my truth, it can manifest in nothing but good in the long run for both of us. No matter what the outcome.
Thank you if you have managed to plow your way through this very lengthy comment. It helps to reiterate my reasoning to myself, and maybe it will help someone else to understand their perplexing situation.
To Marie:
I am not sure I can put anything articulate together to reply to you, but I did want to acknowledge your heartfelt words and your very interesting story.
I too find it helpful to write things down. I am very slow to process things and I need to go over them repeatedly.
I am glad you are making so much progress and I hope you continue to do so.
Dear Norma,
Thank you for your kind words.
I did expect to fall apart, and felt horrible for a very brief time. I will make a visit to my old therapist just for support in my decision, to help keep my resolve. But apparently, thank God, the peace of making a painful but necessary decision has overridden all else. So I’m going with it.
I’d be lying if I said I didn’t still hope we would meet up again somehow or other, could stay in touch, and try out friendship, but I’m not obsessing, agonizing or pining.
And I do miss him when I think of him, as is to be expected.
Dear Marie,
Welcome to this forum, and thank you so much for articulating so clearly your story.
I have experienced (with the -ed part somewhat in question) similar issues, and appreciate the renewed discussion of this topic. Up to now, I have been focussing on a different aspect of my limerent experience, but plan to return to this topic within the next few weeks.
I encourage you to read the excellent blog, https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-limerence-for-a-therapist/
The conversation between Beth, BW, and Lovisa is especially interesting, and I found it extremely helpful.
Good luck to you, Marie, and I hope we can continue this dialog.
,Dear CatCyclist
Thank you for your reply.
Actually, the link you quoted was the very first blog I read when I became aware of the phenomenon of limerence. Yes, it certainly was excellent.
Interestingly enough, I thought that I would fall apart after breaking with my therapist. However, I feel quite stable, free, and like my pre-therapy self, a person generally happy with my daily life. When I think of him, I miss him, even cry—he is one of those truly “good LO’s,” but I’m not overwhelmed as I was before, and I don’t feel obsessed.
I would readily agree to see my now ex-therapist on a friendship basis if he were willing, though he has never seen ex-clients after they were done. I would like to have a more complete picture of who he is, though I think I doubt that he would be essentially different than he is as a therapist. And, admittedly, I would like to see if we got along, had other things in common, such as a shared outlook on life, or laughed at the same things..compare what I have intuited about him with the real person.
But as I said, I don’t put my hopes on any outcome. I just have to trust that doing the right thing for myself will lead me to a good place.
DrL,
As to the video, I think it’s a good summary. This site and the blood conversations have helped me. I still have issues with using the same word, limerence to describe both the initial, normal way of falling in love for half the population and then also the addiction behavior. Beyond that, I question whether limerence in any form is normal behavior. I wouldn’t and haven’t advised my oldest son to fall madly in love with a woman. Instead I’ve always encouraged him in what he was already doing; taking it slow, getting to know the other person, making sure they’re a match in personality, financial, sexual, family goals… I don’t think our ancestors had to pair bond to have sex and partner up so I don’t agree with the idea that limerence is biologically based to propagate the species. But it’s just my thoughts. I know how to scientifically know the answer but that sort of experiment isn’t going to happen. I guess the closest thing you could do outside of ideal conditions is study the primitive tribes if any still exist. Again, very impractical and just isn’t going to happen.
Someone brought this up in another post, so I’ll mention that I listen to your videos at 1.8x playback. You don’t have to do anything. Your speech is fine. It’s not ADHD on my part. It really means nothing other than I can listen and process your voice at a faster rate so it takes half the time for me to listen to this Q&A lecture for example. That’s a good thing for both of us. I’ve been listening to podcasts forever and somewhere way back I heard that radio stations and podcasts had figured out that they could take out the pauses, etc. (using an early form of AI, also not sure if all know that radio is not live anymore) and shorten the broadcast and then stick in more ads with the time savings. People like me then did it ourselves to listen to more podcasts. Anyway …
Dear Hamlet,
Although I have indeed “fallen madly in love (or limerence),” I completely agree with and espouse your advice to your son: to go slowly, get to know the other person, see what the common interests and goals are, etc.
I hadn’t followed this advice in younger days. No regrets, thankfully things seem to have turned out for the most in spite of youthful impetuosity—or call it stupidity—though undoubtedly we endured a lot more suffering was than might have been necessary. But live and learn…
At this point in my older life, I would not act otherwise as you have encouraged your son to do.
Marie,
In my marriage of 35 years, while it took a long time and lots of needless pain and suffering, we’re finally in a loving marriage. So the crazy way of getting married did actually work out for me.
Recognizing and overcoming the LE is what took it to another gear, from acceptance to loving gratitude. At 56, still living and learning.