Time for another visit to the LwL virtual coffeehouse, where all things life and limerence can be discussed.
This week, I’d like to kick things off with a discussion about the menopause.
Now, obviously, this is not a topic from which I can draw personal experience. But, there was some really interesting discussion about how age affects limerent feelings—well romantic attraction generally, actually—in the last coffeehouse. That got me pondering about how important hormonal changes are in deciding who we find attractive, and how attractive we find them.
By coincidence, this chat amongst the LwL commentators happened at the same time as I was giving a talk on limerence, and one of the questions in the Q&A after was on how menopause affects limerence. I’d also had a couple of email enquiries earlier in the week about it.
The omens seemed clear.
It’s a topic whose time has come.
Also, given the confusing role of hormones in libido, limerence and love (especially the balance between oestrogen and testosterone), it’s a rich area for insight, full of unanswered questions.
Given all that, I’d like to start a targeted discussion in this thread and see if we can reach any tentative conclusions.
So, I have a few questions to ask of the post- and peri-menopausal ladies (and, I guess, the living-with-menopausal-ladies gentlemen):
- How has menopause affected your libido?
- How closely was libido tied to your limerence before (i.e. did limerence generally make you more lusty)?
- Did going through menopause change the experience of limerence for you?
- Did the strength of limerent feelings change?
- If you were in a long-term relationship before menopause, did the transition affect your feelings towards your partner?
Any answers and insights are welcome.
For the guys too, feel free to weigh in with how age has affected your limerence experience, and whether you’ve noticed any changes in the ways that menopausal women in your life relate to you.
I appreciate that this isn’t in any way scientific, but I just want to try and get a sense of how menopause (and, by assumption, the hormonal changes involved) affect limerence, lust, attraction and attachment.
Gathering testimony was how Dorothy Tennov first discovered limerence, so that’s a good enough precedent for me.
Thanks in advance to all who contribute to the discussion!
Okay, I am the queen of post-menopausal limerence.
I fear my answers are going to be disappointing.
I was in a long-term marriage before this limerent episode.
The divorce was one of those scorched-earth experiences that I can barely talk about, even twenty years later. I had little interest in men after that, and I continue to have little interest in men. I don’t know how much of that is hormonal and how much of that is psychological trauma.
I have not dated and have no desire to do so.
Then I met LO. Ugh. I felt like a teenager again. On the one hand, it was lovely to realize that I am still alive and was still capable of such feelings. On the other hand, ugh.
As I pull slowly away from LO, I’m just going back to the way I felt before.
I realize these are not the kinds of answers you’re looking for, since I did not go through menopause while I was experiencing limerence.
Hi Norma. That’s actually just the kind of answer I was hoping for – real life experience, summarised clearly. Thanks!
I did want to add something. My only other limerent experience happened in my twenties. To the best of my recollection, the feelings and intensity were very similar. You’d think it would be less intense at my age now, but I don’t believe that it is.
The one area where it is different is the fact that I understand what it is now and have better tools to recover.
Hi Dr Tom,
Just checking-in to add some data no your 5 questions as I fit the age bracket 🙂
How has menopause affected your libido?
I had a flash of increased libido in Perimenopause. That co-incided with my one-and-only LE and it was very pronounced.
How closely was libido tied to your limerence before (i.e. did limerence generally make you more lusty)?
I have never before been limerent so I can’t answer this. I had euphoria in early stages of past relationships, including with SO, but as this never deteriorated into limerence, I don’t count those as LEs – though they might indicate that I am one of the limerent ‘tribe’ and just needed the right circumstances. The one-and-only LE that I did have (intrusive thoughts, brain being hijacked, thinking about LO 24/7) was in my perimenopausal period when I had increased libido. I cant separate one from the other. As to why limerence happened, I do not think that it was perimenopause, at least not on its own, I think it was a combination of middle life, perimenopause, stress and escapism. I had a bad time with family health and traumas and limerent fantasy provided self-medication for me in that period.
Did going through menopause change the experience of limerence for you?
/ Did the strength of limerent feelings change?
I am possibly at the stage of menopause now although I still use birth control so it is hard to say if I am through it. Any woman my age will empathise with the impossibiility of knowing the answer to this question as the scientific markers of menopause are thrown out by birth control or HRT. But also, I am 5 years past the start of my LE and not fully through it yet. I still have very warm feelings for LO. I still lust after him but I would say its more warmth than lust at this stage. Like the previous question, I can’t separate out the effects of limerence. What I can say is that I am not even close to falling limerent for someone new. Although I only ever had one, so maybe I am not a representative sample.
If you were in a long-term relationship before menopause, did the transition affect your feelings towards your partner?
Yes. I appreciate my partner a lot more now than I did before limerence. He never caused me the pain that I experienced with LO (not LO’s fault although he definitely led me on – a whole other essay). I’ve been with my partner for more than 20 years and we are have developed ways of being together that get more attuned and attentive to what each other needs. He is very good at giving me what I need and I hope I do the same for him, especially as we are very different personalities.
This is a fascinating topic for me, thanks for looking into it.
Hi Bewitched,
how are you? Somehow I thought you are completely through with your LE, but now you write you are not fully through?
Which, now, I ended up thinking is nothing to stress or worry about. One can be so fixated on ending the LE once and for all! But this fixation can be counterproductive. Maybe it’s much better to accept everything as it is, just acknowledge that there might still be unusual reactions to LO contact, without ruminating about it, and it will become more and more of a background humming that might or might not have vanished at some point.
Main point is that it doesn’t disrupt your life anymore and you are happy!
Lots of good wishes from Mila!
Hey Mila,
How lovely to hear from you 😘😘!!
I want to say that, for me, this is definitely the case:
“Maybe it’s much better to accept everything as it is, just acknowledge that there might still be unusual reactions to LO contact, without ruminating about it, and it will become more and more of a background humming that might or might not have vanished at some point.”
I am actually quite pleased with the outcome because, even though I still need to work with LO from time to time, it does not cause me many problems. I don’t over-think it. He sometimes annoys me but only because he is a bit un-thinking and over-optimistic about how long work will take (he is very slap-dash and makes mistakes, then claims things will take 20 minutes which annoys me because if I do it properly, it will take several hours, grrrrr 😆)
Its actually good that he is a bit annoying!
My default setting is to like him a little bit too much and this helps me keep that in check.
I was sympathising with @Marcia (👋) a few weeks ago because the attraction I feel for men generally in my life has all but disappeared. That’s why this little spike I get for LO is valuable, it keeps me motivated / interested in that side of things, but my self-knowledge from this journey means that its going nowhere. Ever!
The fact that I know that its possible, at least in theory, to feel that way about someone is enough for me. And – hello – I am not available, so it has to be enough. I am attracted to my SO to, but that’s a very different tone and timbre to the LO attraction. It’s there but its very different.
Switching topic slightly – I have friends who argue in favour of HRT, for the health benefits (heart, bones, circulation) as opposed to the symptom relief. Like limerence, lots of doctors are way behind the recent literature when it comes to HRT. I don’t take HRT as I am through the worse of the symptoms, but I often wonder whether I should, as a preventative measure. Sadly, I am too lazy to bother with it when I do not have bad symptoms anymore (the perimenopause was hard, in places).
Mila, I hope that all is well with you. I would dearly love a good girly gossip ☺️ but its impossible in a public arena. Sending MAJOR hugs your way.
Hi Bewitched,
„I would dearly love a good girly gossip ☺️“
Me too!😘 I still get wistful at the idea of coffee with you and Imho.
Not much gossip here, though- it seems to have finally hit home completely that XLO cannot be the sensitive close friend I hoped he would be. Of course I’ve known that with my logical brain for ages and went on about it at length on this site, but somehow there was a small part of me believing he could still be that person.
He‘s still my friend, all is well, but it feels a bit grey. Death of hope on a friendship level, I guess.
Or it’s just my hormones playing up that I feel grey (very elegant transition).
„I have friends who argue in favour of HRT, for the health benefits (heart, bones, circulation) as opposed to the symptom relief“
My gynecologist argues like that. She believes that small doses of estrogen are crucial even after menopause to preserve bones, brain etc.(and of course you cannot take estrogen without progesterone) . There are different opinions, of course, I guess!
At the moment I‘m on cyclical progesterone only, I think it does me some good, but haven’t decided how to go on from that.
Concerning attraction to men, my verdict on that isn’t out yet either.
It’s interesting that you see it as a positive that your LO keeps that side of things awake in you. Me, I feel some change, going hand in hand with finally accepting myself as an older woman, I look at the attraction-game a bit as if on a boat leaving a shore, if that makes sense.
But I’m not sure if I’m relieved or sad about it. It will be a relief that my sense of self-worth won’t be dependent on that game any more (it was, partially, and I feel that change), and that a certain form of pain won’t happen any more, but on the other hand I’m still alive, and attraction (to someone or someone being attracted to me) is something that makes one feel very alive (without acting on it, of course, and without deteriorating into limerent obsession).
That’s probably what you mean when you take it as a plus that you can feel about LO that way?
Maybe I’m not there yet, let’s speak later..
Meanwhile I struggle a bit with self-discipline, anxiety and generally staying upbeat, I think it’s all connected, absence of limerence, hormones, friendship disappointments, age…
I’ll go and take my progesterone now..🙈
Lots of hugs to you too Bewitched!
I am 56 and been with my SO since we were 18.
I am a few months into a LE with a neighbour, my mental health has been affected dramatically. I’ve been off work for months, I’ve done the deprogramming course, I’m in therapy but the effect on my marriage is so painful and I’m truly wondering how people get on with life whilst still limerent for years?
I think menopause and time of life has a major impact on women that feel like they want to appear attractive to someone else.
Katie,
“…and I’m truly wondering how people get on with life whilst still limerent for years?”
Let me see if I can satisfy your curiosity. I feel the only honest answer to your question is … they don’t. Not really. Either the person was never limerent in the first place (i.e. they mistook a garden-variety crush for limerence) or they “fake” living life in a normal way. The limerence becomes an all-consuming obsession. This is why folk say indulging in limerence is “playing with fire”.
I’m a male. I met my LO – also male, a peer/classmate at high school – when I was 13. I was always drawn to him, and he seemed to like me back in some ambiguous but always unspoken way. However, I didn’t have any problems managing my feelings for him until I was 16, when he seemed to invade my consciousness completely.
I do think I unwittingly fed some kind of unconscious fantasies between the ages of 13-16, so maybe that’s why my limerence exploded, like a bushfire raging out of control, once I hit senior. The euphoric highs I got from this boy when I was aged 16-17 were amazing. But the lows were debilitating, crushing, contained feelings of unspeakable sadness, etc, etc. I could function enough to complete my high school studies, but everything was a struggle. My performance certainly suffered. I didn’t graduate with good grades.
Between the ages of 18-23, I saw nothing of my LO. However, the rollercoaster ride continued without any in-person input from him, and my mental health was all over the place. I mean, my mental health was declining, but through sheer will-power I managed to complete some tertiary studies and also gain work experience.
I had a complete breakdown at 23, and ended up being hospitalised. I didn’t want to go on living. My LO/LE had basically colonised every inch of free mental space in my head. I was “no longer myself”. There was nothing left of me in there. I feared old friends would not recognise me if they ran into me, so I avoided old friends.
My life between the ages of 23-30 were incredibly difficult. Due to the limerence, I couldn’t work or study. I couldn’t be in a relationship. I self-medicated with alcohol and tobacco, ate very little, slept very little, and exercised like a maniac. I hide my anguish from friends and family, because no one seemed to understand it anyway. Medical professionals told me I was “fine” i.e. they could find nothing wrong with me physically and/or psychologically.
At 30, I started recovering from limerence. I think this is because I started writing poetry. And the point of this poetry was to craft a narrative out of my limerent episode, and to explain to myself what had been going on inside of me. I didn’t actively pursue my LO in any way, but accidental reminders of him set back my recovery.
After 30, recovery wasn’t instant. I spent the next twelve years slowly getting better. I found LwL maybe five years ago, and apparently bored/charmed/entertained/annoyed fellow readers.(Depends who you ask). I am out of my limerence now 100%.
I think there is a so-called cure for limerence, and that so-called cure is accepting the following statement: “My LO doesn’t want to pair-bond with me”. However, it seems that one’s limerent brain can’t process this liberating truth if the emotional part of the brain is still over-aroused and if the logical part of the brain is still dormant. I.e. it seems like one’s own hormones can hold back one’s recovery.
I was always a “good boy”; my LO was your classic “bad boy”. On paper, we should have never “clicked” and shared an emotional connection that felt other-worldly (to me at least). My LO was himself involved with a lovely girl/woman between the ages of 16 and 31. He didn’t put his life on hold for me. The fact he was taken for 15 years made no impact whatsoever on my limerent brain. (I never bothered him or threatened his marriage in any way. I liked his wife. But the fact he was in a relationship didn’t automatically dissolve/weaken the strength of the attachment I felt to him).
First time poster and new to this site 🙂 which I am finding so therapeutic to navigating my current LE. I’m really enjoying reading everyone’s experiences and it helps me not feel so alone. I’ve started the emergency deprogramming course.
I am 41 and am perimenopausal, these are my insights of my recent experience –
Now I know what limerence is (came across Fenna’s and some others contents, during last LE 3 years ago) looking back, every relationship I’ve got into, I can see the signs that I was limerent and then had a kind of ‘waking up’ period, once the relationship settled into the more committed stage at the 18 month – 2 year mark and I was hungry for ‘the sparkle’ again.
Have been with my husband for 16 years and have two primary school age children now.
This last LE has been particularly perplexing/challenging because LO is mutually limerent, particularly enabling (wants a life with me and all the things and hasn’t let me go easily despite multiple cut offs and NC from me) AND I wasn’t physically attracted to him initially (am still not really) however he ‘grew on me’ emotionally; the relationship developed over phone/message etc.
Leading up to his pursual – I have gone through 18 months of health challenges, encompassing what will be my third major surgery next month, and a hysterectomy (May of this year – have kept my ovaries so still having a cycle).
My therapist thinks this is significant, because I experienced a lot of ‘grief’ leading up to the hysterectomy. Even though I had accepted ‘rationally’ my childbearing was over, emotionally it was a ‘grief’ because I have yearned at times for another baby was facing the end of my own fertility/sexual viability etc etc. I’ve also had 3 people close to me die in the last 6 months + I nursed my father through his cancer and death, right before my last LE 3 years ago (with a totally inappropriate LO who was unhinged but intoxicating however the danger factor which did make things intense also helped me break away from him more easily as well). My husband is now approaching late 50’s, struggling to find work, I’m supporting the family entirely financially, so there’s been PRESSURE on top of the health challenges, grief etc to navigate
SO is 14 years older than me and very much my ‘physical’ type – I fell hard (limerent) for him when we got together, I was in my mid 20’s he was nearly 40 and I’d say I’m from the tribe and he isn’t (although he still experienced the normal falling in love experience, he’s never been a particular romantic, expressive type.. he’s avoidant, analytical, practical, masculine, engineer mindset etc).
LO on the other hand has very high EQ. Is in sales like I am, hugely supportive mentally/emotionally and wanted to make my life easier. He’s also only a couple of years older than me, (so compared to my long term relationship, has felt like a kid in some respects when we were in each others presence) we had some of the same old school circles .. it was like a teenage reawakening especially because people from that time in my life were part of his story and it all felt quite surreal.
There was definitely an element of a younger man finding me attractive that signalled I was still viable which fed my limerence + I think in my 20’s when I was looking for a mate + father of my children I chose a traditionally masculine man (strong, fit, angular, capable of protection/fixing things, rides motorbikes etc) whereas now I’m entering middle age and more aware of myself after much therapy and self reflection – connection/self awareness/communication etc are all more important considerations and while falling into this LE took me by surprise; I can see the personality traits of my current LO were attractive to me at this phase of my life more so than when I was in my 20’s when I may have perceived some of them as ‘weak’.
The perimenopause libido kick in also factored.. while this LE never escalated into a full blown physical affair (it got close) LO described it as a kind of ‘Cougar Puberty’ and that tracks for me too.
LO even suggested we could try for a baby (despite me not having a ‘womb’ and him having had a vasectomy, because I still have my ovaries and we could technically go down the IVF/surrogacy route + he has the $$ to ‘fund’ ‘ take care of me financially – this was an intoxicating proposition and his willingness, despite his own children being teenagers was particularly heart string pulling!
Hi APW,
You’ve had a long journey. My opinion is that you need to figure out who you are, who you want to be. I think you know the two options as you present them. You can’t be the same person and take either option as though it was just a coin flip.
@APW
You want to bring another possible LE-genetic baby to this world, when your two cute kids’ wellbeing is dangerously dangling in the LE polluted air?
My opinion: take an urgent “surgery” with DrL to remove your tangled LE root(s) once for all….
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post Hamlet and ‘Shocked Face’ 😉
You’re both absolutely correct, I have decided who I want to be, who I am (despite periodic ‘break out’ behaviour’s which would suggest otherwise) now, where I want to go and the type of wife + mother I want to be. Limerence is death to those things.
And it HAS been a long journey. Once that goes right back to my childhood with a narc father and BPD/Bi Polar mother who was under convert control + emotionally unstable, despite being my main and genuine source of parental nurture growing up. Dad passed in 2022 and I did as much as I could to heal that relationship (it did get better once my parents eventually broke up after 28 years, his relationship with my bonus mother was more balanced than with my mother who was 12 years his junior, 19 when they got together and under his control) before he passed.
My mother has come leaps and bounds since leaving dad, she’s now married to a very stable counsellor (not hers;) and has apologised for where she let me down + has largely stabilised.
Both my parents had affairs when I was growing up and were limerents – especially my mother RE LE’s .. escaping into romantic fantasy.. something she hasn’t done post menopause.. deep healing and now being in a stable relationship for 10 years
Who knows with my father RE whether he was a limerent or just narcissistic. There was so much dishonesty/lack of self-awareness and running from his hideous unbearable feelings of rejection/correction/guilt having been abandoned by his birth mother at 9 months and not finding out he was adopted until 21 (a trauma he never really reconciled); there was however the fruit of plenty of adultery I was pulled into as a confidant for him, growing up.
The point of me unpacking all of this is, that I’ve realised how this started .. in that it was modelled to me and from the start, my parental nurture was so unreliable.. I was set up to form bonds quickly with other people (particularly men because that was the most toxic parental relationship) to try and fill the void of paternal love/acceptance/validation.
I’ve come to realise that what can feel like a ‘soul mate’ is actually a ‘wound mate’. It’s effectively a trauma bond that’ going on rooted in my unresolved wounds (this last one was particularly frustrating because I’ve already done ‘so much work’ and thought I was more immune to further LE’s than I am. I guess the hormonal changes, health challenges, grief and being complacent with filling my tank through legitimate ways; all took it’s toll. Especially in view of such a compatible and talented LO who really wanted me this time. My previous ones, haven’t, nearly as much.
My LO’s have in some way all made me feel seen, validated and connected and like I’ve finally ‘won’ the love I didn’t get as a child but from someone, in some way who resembles the person who hurt me then.
The truth is that the time for unconditional parental love and childhood nurture is past.
I need to reparent myself RE the gaping holes.
@APW,
Once you get rid of the inappropriate LE and its roots — an absolutely tough and possibly long journey, you will BECOME your dreamt PARENT to your Children and your SELF that is never static but constantly healing and growing.
Yes, NO External God (let alone any LO) could ever Reparent the wounded, awakened, and renewing you, except YOU!
I‘m in early perimenopause, I guess, so I don’t know yet how menopause will affect anything.
But it’s very clear that hormones played a big role in my limerent episodes.
Though I think I was limerent for my SO, I only count the LEs during my marriage that seemed to get out of control, as opposed to other crushes I might have had here and there.
I had 3 counted LEs, and the first one was at the end of my thirties going into 40. In hindsight I’d say that hormones might have started to signal that time is running out and I might have had heightened physical reactions to LO1, it was the most physically oriented LE.
While I only noticed first definitive signs of perimenopause in the last year, I think my LEs were already then steered by hormones starting to fire more intensely, or getting unbalanced or whatever.
I‘ve always been prone to limerent feelings, so age wasn’t the sole reason at all, but age/hormones most probably acerbated limerence or made crushes tip over into limerence.
Also, for me, physical attraction played a big role in my limerent episodes and is hard to overcome, and hormones definitely cause physical needs and attractions, and it would be a big coincidence that the LEs started at an age where hormones are supposed to play up.
Also, while it was surely not as simple as getting older and trying to prove I can still pull, feeling clock ticking etccetc, there was, subconsciously
, always a bit of that last-chance feeling involved, also in my second LE for a much younger guy, competing against a much younger woman.
In my third LE I was much more informed about limerence, thanks to this site and own experiences, and I could literally watch myself getting more or less limerent (or needy or wistful, or more detached) according to my cycle.
Now, after all this, I’m officially in perimenopause and I feel bigger changes coming. I‘m without any limerence for the first time for years, and I feel that with the hormones, my mindset is changing too. I feel menopause might put an end to limerence. That, or I finally learned my lesson after three LEs, who knows?
It’s hard to tell how much hormonal fluctuations are causing limerent reactions, or if they just happen simultaneously and coincidentally. Could also be that limerence steers hormones too, not only the other way round.
It’s an interesting topic anyway, and me personally, I feel a connection between perimenopause and limerence.
And yes, limerence made me more lusty;)
This is very interesting!
I wondered in the back of my mind WHY I experienced Limerence for the first time in my mid 40’s. I came to my own conclusion that it was my co-dependency/ anxious attachment style that was the major cause.
But why now?
I had been noticing changes in my mood, sleep patterns and I found myself easily annoyed at just trivial things before this happened.
My thoughts and moods where all over the place.
Hormones starting to change obviously.
so, yeah In my case I’m pretty certain it played a part in my development of Limerence at this point in my life.
1.) How has menopause affected your libido?
It killed it. Only to be revived by the attention of someone I was interested in.
2.) How closely was libido tied to your limerence before (i.e. did limerence generally make you more lusty)?
Very much tied to it.
3.) and 4.) Did going through menopause change the experience of limerence for you? Did the strength of limerent feelings change?
So you need to ask additional questions with these two questions. IMO. I’d start with: Has menopause changed your perception of yourself as a woman? Have men responded to differently now that you’re older? (If the woman is straight.)
So for me … after menopause … was the first time in my life I’d started to feel older. And I felt I was getting less attention from men. I don’t know if the strength of the limerence changed. I know too much about limerence after being on this site to go totally off the deep end with it like I did in my 40s. But the impact of someone finding me appealing who I found appealing was much greater now that I’m older. (Due to the factors I just mentioned. And also, after menopause, there’s a sense of time running out.)
Ok … you wanted to “go there,” Dr. L. 🙂 You brought up one of the yuckiest topics on the planet. 🙂 So you have to do it with the middle-aged and older men. How has aging affected their perception of themselves as men? How has limerence changed for them? Why do so many have younger LOs? Does the attention from a younger LO mean more because of the LO’s age? In what way? For the partnered limerents, if they have a younger LO and that younger LO made clear things could move forward with them (an EA or a PA) … would the temptation been hard to turn down (harder than, say, it would have been years earlier due to aging)?
I’ll have a try at some of it, from mid to late 40s experiences. All LEs and crushes when I was younger were done in 6-12 months. This one was 2 years and also way deeper / more obsessive and intrusive than any previous one. It just seemed it would not shift, at any given moment or more permanently. That hasn’t happened to me before. I don’t know if it is because of my age.
My LO is not much younger than me (just a few years) and a similar age to my SO, and I haven’t had a crush on someone loads younger at any point – it is like attraction has aged with me.
I know you’ll say this isn’t as big a deal for men as women … but I do think the idea that we can still attract someone is compelling at this age. And you do sometimes wonder if it’s the last time. And I don’t think it can be controlled that even being partnered, those things are still compelling – only what we do with the feeling can be controlled, not the feeling itself. I have some male friends my age who I am sure would have a PA if they could get a sniff of one. Not all my friends are like that but I definitely know some men that are.
LaR,
“I know you’ll say this isn’t as big a deal for men as women … but I do think the idea that we can still attract someone is compelling at this age. ”
You didn’t read what I wrote. 🙂 It’s compelling for either gender. It’s the reason I’m semi-limerent now. The key is … it has to be someone I’m interested. It can’t just be anyone.
But for men … my question is … does it mean more if you get the attention from someone who’s young and hot? Because it’s almost a cliche. If there’s a middle-aged male limerent on here, his LO is considerably younger.
“And you do sometimes wonder if it’s the last time.”
Wait until you hit your 50s. When you walk around with a (figurative) clock hanging over your head, and you can hear it ticking.
“If there’s a middle-aged male limerent on here, his LO is considerably younger.”
I don’t know how we’re defining middle aged … but the much younger LO thing doesn’t go for me. All the way through life I have tended to crush on women who are a tiny bit younger but still within 5 years or so of me.
What strikes me from the writings of those men here (many over time) who have a much younger LO, is how they confuse the woman being friendly or professional with it being something more.
“Wait until you hit your 50s”
A lot of men seem to deteriorate quite a lot (I mainly mean in appearance) through their 40s and early 50s, and suddenly look very old.
LaR,
“I don’t know how we’re defining middle aged”
40 to 45? If you double 45, very few people live to 90! HA! 🙂
JK. Idk. 40 to 60? 40 to retirement age ?
“A lot of men seem to deteriorate quite a lot (I mainly mean in appearance) through their 40s and early 50s, and suddenly look very old.”
Women have a tendency to take better care of themselves than men, but by around the time of perimenopause-menopause-postmenopause … women start to age, too. It’s the change in hormones.
Oh, I thought of you. I didn’t know if you were still on here anymore but … a couple of weeks ago, a male friend disclosed his feelings. I really wished he hadn’t. I feel uncomfortable and kind of duped. He’s considerably older … again, I don’t know why your side doesn’t seem to get that a big age difference IS a thing. I thought of him like a father. He’s very new-agey. Sees himself as treating women with respect, but I don’t see this as respect. Better to be direct and upfront right away about how you’re feeling.
LaR, I agree with you. The most vocal male Limerents here are lusting for hot young colleagues. It’s a pleasant fantasy to be rescued from the women they actually are partnered with or attracting – not as hot, not as young, and maybe not interested in sex anymore – and from the painful reality that the effects of aging are making them less attractive, too. Want a hot young partner? 1. Money. 2. Muscles.
Like you, my LO is about the same age as me, and was my LO when I was a teen, as well as today (over 25 years later). As a teen, I wanted my LO to be my first, but I found / chose someone else and then the LE faded into friendship. My current LE escalated on my birthday (hello) and got more intense as I realized I didn’t want to wait another 25 years for us to have our great romance. Romance at 70 seems much less exciting than romance at 45, but I may change my mind when I’m 65.
My midlife limerence was stronger because it’s at a time when there aren’t many (good) “firsts” to look forward to day to day and year to year.
As a teen, I wanted my LO to rescue me from my state of virginity, as a partner I could feel proud of. An opportunity with someone else who seemed LO’s equal presented itself and the LE ended.
At midlife, it is a desire to be rescued from my duties as a provider to my family. Those are not going away any time soon, and I still procrastinate (here, for instance) but I don’t dream about my LO anymore.
My crushes tend to be in a 15-year range, older or younger. They can be much older, but not often. Much younger and they could be my child, so no.
“… a couple of weeks ago, a male friend disclosed his feelings. I really wished he hadn’t. I feel uncomfortable and kind of duped. He’s considerably older … again, I don’t know why your side doesn’t seem to get that a big age difference IS a thing. I thought of him like a father.”
Marcia
So you basically had the same reaction as LF did when I disclosed to her and it changed the dynamic between us.
Perhaps he just wanted to get it all out in the open. Nothing malicious. Taking a chance on the whole relationship because he wanted you to know the vibe was feeling right to him. He wanted to increase things. Hoping you might feel the same. If only a little.
You can say that you looked to him like you would a Father. But do you give your Father convincing eye contact?You could say LF probably looked to me like a Father in a way but I have to kind of doubt that. It was always her eye contact towards me that suckered me in. Like staring, looking away and then going back and doing it all over again. This went on for months. It still happens even though we’re hardly talking anymore. Not to mention she told me exclusively, to stay in my lane because she has a SO now..
I can’t figure it out. And I know I can’t be the only one experiencing this. If an attractive Woman is seemingly interested and is constantly looking at me, I’m going to naturally want to investigate and see what it’s about. As a man, this is hardwired in to me. This was a primary reason I lost my mind over LO.
If I become Friends with a Woman and I make it obvious I’m interested, why is it so cringe when I disclose? You don’t get to keep staring at me like that and then expect me to think you’re NOT interested. Why? Because your eye contact is sending a signal I like. Because you probably don’t stare at your own Father like that. Why would you? He’s your Father.
Case in point, we disclose because we’re Men and we like Women who seem to be interested the same. It’s in the “optics” of what I am seeing. With my own 2 eyes. I wish it wasn’t so offensive but this is the world I’m living in now.
MJ,
“Perhaps he just wanted to get it all out in the open. Nothing malicious. Taking a chance on the whole relationship because he wanted you to know the vibe was feeling right to him. He wanted to increase things. Hoping you might feel the same. If only a little.”
But he waited MONTHS to say something. If that’s how he felt, he should have come out with it right away. Then I would have known what I was dealing with. When you create a friendship, you create a certain space with someone. Now I don’t completely trust him.
“But do you give your Father convincing eye contact? You could say LF probably looked to me like a Father in a way but I have to kind of doubt that … Not to mention she told me exclusively, to stay in my lane because she has a SO now.”
You always mention eye contact. I’m not there. I can’t say whether it’s happening or not, but as has been said about a million times on here … plenty of people, men and women, flirt like hell with no meaning behind it.
“If an attractive Woman is seemingly interested and is constantly looking at me, I’m going to naturally want to investigate and see what it’s about. As a man, this is hardwired in to me. This was a primary reason I lost my mind over LO.”
But you DIDN’T. You were like my friend — You waited MONTHS. And did my friend ever think about how it would be for me to hear this? No, it was all about him. It’s a very heavy thing to tell someone. Best to ask the person out on a date asap. Made it clear it’s a date. It’s a much lighter way to test the waters. And then each side knows where the other stands.
“Case in point, we disclose because we’re Men and we like Women who seem to be interested the same.”
Don’t tell me I seem like a family member and then two months later tell me about your feelings. If you’re sexually and/or romantically interested, own it. And make a move.
‘But he waited MONTHS to say something. If that’s how he felt, he should have come out with it right away. Then I would have known what I was dealing with. When you create a friendship, you create a certain space with someone. Now I don’t completely trust him.”
Marcia
So in those entire “months” of time, the only vibe you got was a platonic friendship and he virtually didn’t do any other one thing to show some interest he wanted to step things up a notch? I mean I wasn’t there to see it either, so I can’t call it, but I can’t believe he’d be that discreet. Can you not be flattered he’s into you? Why would you have to know this from the get-go? Really what difference does it make?
I suppose the next question I’ll ask is, what is there you can’t trust about him now? His feelings for you probably didn’t decrease much and if he was a good friend before, what is wrong with continuing in keeping it? I’m sure he would love to keep talking to you. Maybe even hopeful your feelings will change or increase too at some point.
“Has been said about a million times on here … plenty of people, men and women, flirt like hell with no meaning behind it.”
This is true, but if it goes on for days, weeks and then months, where the person doing the chasing is continuously trying to move the needle, and the person being chased seems receptive,, Is the person being chased simply ignoring it, denying it, or refusing to believe it?
This is what I have to ask about LF and you as well. If I’m interested, I’m going to try to keep making it obvious. Which is why I asked about your Dude and his behavior. You mean you had no indication he was kinda into you?
“But you DIDN’T. You were like my friend — You waited MONTHS. And did my friend ever think about how it would be for me to hear this? No, it was all about him. It’s a very heavy thing to tell someone.”
LFs exact words to me were “you’re putting a lot on me right now” Keep in mind, I already knew she was sleeping with married Dude. So this always perplexed me, but maybe thats because they’re just fwb’s and my cringey feelings aren’t getting in for sloppy seconds. Maybe I don’t care but I don’t like that. Even though all that staring will give me the strongest vibrations otherwise. LF mentioned only a few times she knew she was young enough to be my Daughter and yet I never really tried to treat her like one.
Rarely did she ever say I gave her Dad vibes, but if I did it’s because we work in a dangerous city and I wanted her to get home safe. To call me if she ever needed me. Like any Father would tell his Daughter, but this wasn’t my angle.
Meaning genuine good friendship must be just that. No sex, no nothing, just 2 people being nice to each other. Totally platonic. Understanding and caring. Being there and trusting one another. Like a Father/Daughter..
My a$$. I’m not buying it..
That kind of friendship doesn’t exist in my world. I’m not getting that cup of coffee yet, so thats proof enough. Even when I’m being super nice, laying out the red carpet, basically being an all out pathetic simp, nothing is ever good enough.
I don’t think Dude means anything malicious or mean spirited by disclosing. He obviously wants you to know. Try not to pee on his parade too hard. A good friend is hard to come by these days. Besides, you might even get a cup of coffee out of it, if you hang around long enough.
😆☕️☕️
MJ,
“So in those entire “months” of time, the only vibe you got was a platonic friendship and he virtually didn’t do any other one thing to show some interest he wanted to step things up a notch?”
I’d say about a week before he said something, I started to get some vibes. But he is like LaR. Has a lot of female friends who he spends one-on-one time with. Honestly, I didn’t think that much of it. I thought he might be interested in a couple of the other female friends.
“Can you not be flattered he’s into you?”
I’ll put it to you like this: How would you feel if someone you weren’t interested in sexually was into you?
“Why would you have to know this from the get-go? Really what difference does it make?”
It makes ALL the difference. You meet her, you ask her out. ASAP. If she gives you anything less than a yes, you move on. That’s how you prevent wasting your time. We’ve gone over this before. You don’t hang around, you don’t hover, you don’t wait for her to change her mind. LF is obviously capable of picking up the signals and doing her part in the mating game to get things going since she’s been with two men since you’ve known her.
“What is there you can’t trust about him now? ”
Because he went through the side door and not the front.
“Maybe even hopeful your feelings will change or increase too at some point.”
I don’t know how it is for other women, but I know within a few minutes of meeting a man if I have sexual interest.
“This is true, but if it goes on for days, weeks and then months, where the person doing the chasing is continuously trying to move the needle, and the person being chased seems receptive,, Is the person being chased simply ignoring it, denying it, or refusing to believe it?”
Who is the chaser? You? I see hovering. I don’t see chasing. But DON’T chase. You SHOW interest. ONE time. If the other person doesn’t do their part, you move on. I’ll use the guy I met on a dating app as an example. He messaged me on the site. I responded. He asked if we could have a phone call. He left me his number. I called. He then texted and asked me out. I said yes and we continued to text until we met up a few days later. This is what a woman does if she’s interested.
Someone who’s not that interested: A had a first date set up with a guy, also from the app. He never suggested a phone call and had only messaged a bit on the site and a little over text but not much. I texted a few days before the date to reschedule. He said that was fine but then went silent and took 3 days to verify a new day to meet up. It took another two days to get a time. Keeping in mind, this was days of silence. He made no effort to chat and stay in touch and get to know me. The day of the date, I still didn’t know where we were meeting and he texted about two hours before with some flim-flam excuse to reschedule. I didn’t respond. No need to. There was nothing there to work with. I’m not trying to be harsh, but isn’t this self-evident?
“This is what I have to ask about LF and you as well. If I’m interested, I’m going to try to keep making it obvious.”
You wrote you asked her over text to do something. She gave you a flim-flam answer. That should have been your cue to walk.
“Rarely did she ever say I gave her Dad vibes, but if I did it’s because we work in a dangerous city and I wanted her to get home safe. To call me if she ever needed me. Like any Father would tell his Daughter, but this wasn’t my angle.”
None of this matters. You threw it out there, she didn’t pick it up. That’s your answer. I don’t know how else to keep saying this.
“That kind of friendship doesn’t exist in my world. ”
I’m sorry that you’re not able to see women beyond their sexual value.
“I’m not getting that cup of coffee yet, so thats proof enough. Even when I’m being super nice, laying out the red carpet, basically being an all out pathetic simp, nothing is ever good enough.”
Not for LF. No. She wasn’t interested.
“I don’t think Dude means anything malicious or mean spirited by disclosing. He obviously wants you to know. ”
Ok. So now I know. I don’t think he’s a horrible person. I just feel uncomfortable now.
Marcia,
“a male friend disclosed his feelings. I really wished he hadn’t. I feel uncomfortable and kind of duped”
The discomfort, the feeling ‘faked’, the ‘a lot for the receiver to process’ – these were big parts (along with my unavailability) of the reason I never did disclose to LO. I am glad I never did now. It could never have gone well or improved the situation.
That said – limerence can really blinker the limerent and make us think (rightly or not) stuff like “LO can probably see it all anyway, so it is better to just disclose and have it in the open”. A lot of self talk was needed to get down off that ledge. Maybe something like that has happened here with your guy. Maybe from what MJ is saying it is similar with how he saw it with LF?
How long have you been friends with this older guy and how close were you? How much he has made an error depends on that, in my opinion.
I can see exactly what you’re getting at when you say the best thing to do is ask people on a date quickly. Many men of my age got mixed messsges about that growing up – that it was actually disrespectful to a woman to move too fast, as that makes it look like we only want her for one thing (her body). Some men would try to go the slower burn route by cultivating a friendship first and seeing if it leads anywhere. I’ve realised more with experience that it doesn’t really work well like that (friendzones etc) … but it’s a line of thinking that’s definitely out there, about ‘being a gentleman’ etc, that could explain the behaviour a bit.
Sapiens,
So you knew your LO when you were much younger – but have you always kept in touch, or if not, who got back in touch and when? You may have said this before.
Is your LO single? Mine is, and I’m only coming to realise with the more breathing space now just how much ‘rescue fantasy’ stuff has been a driver. Sounds like there is a lot of that on your part with this idea of a big future getaway at 70?!
LaR,
“The discomfort, the feeling ‘faked’, the ‘a lot for the receiver to process’ ”
I am really NOT a fan of disclosing feelings. Interest, yes. But not “feelings.” If you haven’t even gone out on a date yet, it’s way too early to discuss “feelings.” What it feels like is A LOT … he handed me over his feelings, expected me to process what he was saying, articulate my own feelings and … what? Make the next move forward ? It all feels really heavy.
” Maybe something like that has happened here with your guy. Maybe from what MJ is saying it is similar with how he saw it with LF?”
I am single and so is my friend. As are LF and MJ. No need to hesitate to ask the person out on a date.
“How long have you been friends with this older guy and how close were you?”
About 3 months. The first two months were a group situation. At least a few of us hanging out. Then we started texting but shared a good amount. He out one-on-one one time. No, I did not see it as a date. I offered to help him do something. Because he’d been generous in a group situation. Financially.
“I can see exactly what you’re getting at when you say the best thing to do is ask people on a date quickly. Many men of my age got mixed messages about that growing up – that it was actually disrespectful to a woman to move too fast, as that makes it look like we only want her for one thing (her body). ”
If you don’t make your interest known right away, I’m going to assume you want to be friends. Isn’t it a little arrogant to assume every guy I’m friends with is interested?
” but it’s a line of thinking that’s definitely out there, about ‘being a gentleman’ etc, that could explain the behaviour a bit.”
I’m going to flip the Gone With the Wind quote … Gentleman have never held any special charm for me. 🙂
Even in the situation with LO-lite … kind of like yours in that he isn’t available but I am … he made a slight move, I made a slight move, he ratcheted things up and I matched the ratchet. You don’t have to keep throwing the ball at someone over and over again.
“I’ll put it to you like this: How would you feel if someone you weren’t interested in sexually was into you?”
Marcia
I’ll give you that. Although I can say I have mellowed about it with age. I kinda welcome it. I find it amusing. Along with their advances. It’s a nice feeling to be desired but I also don’t try to lead anyone on either. It just hasn’t happened in a awhile and anyone that might be feeling something, certainly isn’t letting me in on it..
“You meet her, you ask her out. ASAP. If she gives you anything less than a yes, you move on. That’s how you prevent wasting your time.”
I guess we differ here now because it isn’t the same for me. At least nowadays.
I usually will take anything less as an answer because I’m selfish and I know what I want. If she spins me and wastes my time, I’ll put up with it because I hardly get out much at all. It’s not healthy, it probably doesn’t make sense. To put it bluntly, I don’t have a lot of options, so I don’t want to settle. Even though considering sometimes doing just that doesn’t seem like a bad idea. But it’s old habit and old habits got me divorced. Now I’m crotchety and miserable.
Dad’s issues take an extraordinary amount of any free time I have anyway. It’s insane for me right now, to think I can have things any other way. No good Woman wants my drama. This caretaking. My ridiculous limerent mindset over some pretty blonde I’ll never know. I wouldn’t want her or any Woman involved or around to witness it. I hate it..
“Because he went through the side door and not the front.”
Lmao to this. At least you didn’t write he went through the “back” door and not the front. 😆
“I didn’t respond. No need to. There was nothing there to work with. I’m not trying to be harsh, but isn’t this self-evident?”
Obviously Dude is a Dawdler. Some guys are lazy like that. I say Kudos that it was almost something started but I get why you would give up. I’m probably being lazy about getting back to New Girl about pizza but she already told me from before not to rush anything. My guess is she’s got Ex drama going on. At least from what she’s clued me in on. I guess he’s kind of a douche-bag to her but I’m not trying to pry. I figure she’ll talk about it when she’s ready. I’m definitely not ready to get her involved in my personal s#!+show either.
“I’m sorry that you’re not able to see women beyond their sexual value.”
That’s old MJ you are saying that to. Not limerent idiot MJ. That’s so not what I meant by that statement. That friendship doesn’t exist in my world because this slump feels neverending. It has nothing to do with Women’s sexual value. I get really bitter when I think about all the good intent I put towards LF, hoping it would cast me out of bs limerent funk, when all it did was spill over into some hybrid LE that I come away with positively nothing again.
Again this is LF we’re talking about and it’s old hat and its pointless but it’s a sticking point that gripes me.
MJ,
” I kinda welcome it. I find it amusing. Along with their advances. ”
Why do you find it amusing? That sounds like you’re making fun of them. I don’t mind if someone chats me up or flirts or compliments me. I’m a ho for compliments. 🙂 But my friend didn’t do that. Just laid all these heavy feelings on me.
“It’s a nice feeling to be desired but I also don’t try to lead anyone on either. ”
Well, I want to be very clear here: Flirting is … just flirting. If that’s what you’re talking about. It’s just a nice moment with someone. If the person isn’t backing it up with action, it doesn’t mean anything. Did LF flirt and stare and lap up your attention? Quite possibly. I’m not saying you’re making that part up. But a woman who is interested wants to spend time with you and, frankly, get physical with you (at whatever level she’s comfortable with).
“I usually will take anything less as an answer because I’m selfish and I know what I want. ”
But your behavior isn’t suggesting you know what you want. Like with pizza woman (forever to be known as Pizza Patty :)) … telling her you’re going to circle back and ask later … does not suggest you know what you want. It comes off as flim-flammy. Like … you’re probably aren’t going to circle back and set a date and time. I know you feel LF led you on, but men led women on, too. Men do a lot of what I call “light toss outs” that they don’t follow through on. “We should try that restaurant …. ” And it’s never mentioned again.
“To put it bluntly, I don’t have a lot of options, so I don’t want to settle. ”
You don’t have a lot of options because you’re not trying to meet anyone outside of work. That’s the only place you seem to be looking.
And LF isn’t an option. So not settling isn’t really an issue. At least not with her. (To be clear, I’m not suggesting you should spend time with women you’re not interested in.)
“Dad’s issues take an extraordinary amount of any free time I have anyway. It’s insane for me right now, to think I can have things any other way. No good Woman wants my drama. This caretaking. ”
I’m sorry you’re going through a tough time with your dad, but it’s common for people our age to be caring for parents. Will women our age understand? I think so. Will younger women? I don’t know. I couldn’t tell you. I’m not young. 🙂
“Lmao to this. At least you didn’t write he went through the “back” door and not the front. 😆”
Just to be clear … NO door is open for him. 🙂 It reminds me of that LL Cool J song. I KNOW you know the song I’m talking about. 🙂
“Obviously Dude is a Dawdler. Some guys are lazy like that.”
Could be lazy. Could be a flim-flammer. Could be he was waiting around to see if plans firmed up with another woman. Who knows?
” I say Kudos that it was almost something started”
I don’t. He made very little effort and he didn’t follow through. I keep telling you … a man with a plan, a man who enacts that plan … that is a sexy man.
” I’m probably being lazy about getting back to New Girl about pizza but she already told me from before not to rush anything. ”
As I wrote above, the message you’re sending is that you aren’t serious. By taking all this time to get back to her.
” I get really bitter when I think about all the good intent I put towards LF, hoping it would cast me out of bs limerent funk, when all it did was spill over into some hybrid LE that I come away with positively nothing again.
Again this is LF we’re talking about and it’s old hat and its pointless but it’s a sticking point that gripes me.”
I get it. I was essentially circling my last big LO. I wasted a LOT of time. It’s taken me way, way, way too long to figure out that flirting/giving attention and making a move/showing up are two totally different things. That should be at the top of this site in flashing red font.
“Why do you find it amusing? That sounds like you’re making fun of them. I don’t mind if someone chats me up or flirts or compliments me. I’m a ho for compliments. 🙂 But my friend didn’t do that. Just laid all these heavy feelings on me.”
Marcia,
Hello again Great One. Sorry for the delay in responding. Been way too busy the past few nights to get on. Wanted to get back to you eventually.
Perhaps “Amusing” was the wrong word. Although I suppose I am amused in a way because I’m flattered someone would even bother to be into me like that. I’m nobody special and don’t try to be.
If I like their personality it’s one thing. I can tolerate them being around, but if they’re annoying and persistent, it gets awkward and then I have to avoid. That doesn’t happen as much these days anyway, now that I’m older. I don’t try to look or act like it though so that may be my only saving grace.
May I ask how your Friend laid it on heavy to you? Only curious because LF said I laid it on thick too but I really don’t think I did.. Like Seriously!
All I actually told her was the idea of her being my girl was intriguing. No affectionate crazy for you’s, gotta have you or dying to know you better, love you like no other man can. None of that crap, lol.. Nor did I ever send her novel texts professing undying love to her either. I suppose I didn’t consider her much when I did it.(does anybody when their disclosing?) But I guess I figured I was basically already being rejected by her refusal to ever meet for coffee or a drink outside of work anyway. I figured what have I got to lose? May as well go down swinging..
Thing is, I made it awkward then, but then it got better after a few weeks. And then like within another month after that, we were getting along better than before my disclosure. Then of course the epic fail happens when I talk about my past. Never mind what she’s doing.. This is why it’s so frustrating.
“Will women our age understand? I think so. Will younger women? I don’t know. I couldn’t tell you. I’m not young. 🙂”
That makes 2 of us, lol.. 😆
You just won’t give yourself a break with that will you??
I really don’t want to bring any Woman around until I know she’s mature enough to understand or handle what I do. It’s not for just anybody and is almost embarrassing but I don’t need to go into that here. It’s super time consuming and stressful but it has to be done. Unfortunately any life I want right now is next to impossible. 😑
“I keep telling you … a man with a plan, a man who enacts that plan … that is a sexy man.”
Well I do want to be sexy, lmao.. I can see why that would matter. I do have a plan with the new girl. A very nice plan and I feel like we’ll have a nice time. It’s just scheduling it with how things go with Dad and the other caretaker take time to put together and there is a cost factor involved too. Needs to happen on the weekend for sure. I can make it happen and I will. It’s just challenging right now.
Was also going to add I met up with one of my other former Lady Friend workers from the old plant a few years ago. (Where LO was) This was the one I told you about before that was in her early 40s and had the college-aged Daughter.
She also is Latina and beautiful and we chatted it up a little this last week. She got a little personal with me too. Like telling me she’s divorced and the Ex is nowhere to be found. Said she was married for 17 years and was a stay at home Mom. So I like to think she might be putting “feelers” out there. Women still do this correct?? I told her a little about my divorce but nothing super personal. Not yet at least. All I know is I’m reconsidering her again and I would love to meet with her for coffee. What do you think? I so don’t want to let the new girl down either.
No joke, my head is kind of fried that I’m actually talking to not just one but 2 attractive and younger Latina Women. All I really need to do is talk to LO now and my brain will probably implode.. What is this World coming to??
Brother
I gotta say, while I appreciate them, you like your tamales spicy like I like my chocolate dark. 😉
Brother Adam
I do man. It’s so weird too.
Like she was really really friendly this time. When she walked away, I was grinning from ear to ear.
Now if only I could get LO on board.. Latina overload..
I love em. I love em all.. 🥰😍
I’m 56 years old. My perception of myself has changed and I’m positive will continue to change as I age. Really for the same reason that I’ve had the LE off the LO for 35 yrs, the real and the mind’s perception of the real are never aligned. I feel that as I get older the two are much more aligned than say 35 yrs ago but it’s an impossibility to achieve. I always feel younger in appearance than I truly am mostly in my face. There is an ever present seeing old people in public, thinking they look old, then recognizing I’m the same age and so must look like that to them too. Oh, the mind! Physically in appearance other than my face I’m probably more fit than in my 30s and 40s, but that we’re I feel old. I have no desire for speed. In the thread you started, someone mentioned something about man’s desire for young LO being related to men recognizing their impending death. I had cancer at 43 and went through a lot and came out in my 50s as a Heideggerian. I accept my death, built a life project with the remaining years of my life (I assume death at 75) and made changes to my life accordingly. Nothing in that plan involves finding younger LOs, LOL! I guess I overlooked that option. Heidegger would say that your observation is likely correct concerning older men and young nubile LOs, because they haven’t accepted their death, are scared of death, block it out, etc. Hence why he wrote Being and Time. I don’t know if I’m unusual or not. The loudest voices are typically not the most common. But, luckily my attraction to women has aged with me as I have aged. My wife is still as attractive to me as when we met. My attraction to people is more mature now too than when I was younger. Talking to a dopey young person is one of my versions of hell. Talking to a stubborn dumb boomer is too I suppose. I am married but my LO was from 35 years ago. The LE experience lasted that long without contact. So no true updates throughout the LE to the LO. Clearly she represented a Jungian archetype that my subconscious desired. But the true LE in my mind always seemed to involve us in our early 20s in some attempt to change the past, could I have said something different, done something different, etc. Of course I thought of somehow bumping into her in the present or getting single after some accident involving my wife and reconnecting but my mind is not very precise or detailed at digitally aging my 35 yr old image of the LO. While I was aware she’d look 56 too, the precise image was never clear.
I haven’t gone all the way through to menopause yet and am currently on HRT, but I don’t think there was much difference between my limerence now vs. what it’s been for the last 30 years, at least regarding anything hormonal. The one area where there HAS been a difference is from external factors: My SO’s aging and temperament, and an LO who feels the same way. That inspires the feeling of “this is my last chance!”
I’m answering your questions as a perimenopausal, late-forties female.
1. How has menopause affected your libido?
Increased it!
2. Did limerence generally make you more lusty?
Yes
3. Did going through menopause change the experience of limerence for you?
Maybe I can answer this question in a few years. At this point, I don’t know.
4. Did the strength of limerent feelings change?
No
5. If you were in a long-term relationship before menopause, did the transition affect your feelings towards your partner?
I WANT him more! I can’t get enough of him! I love being with him! I love touching him! I love how he touches me! I love looking at him!
You’re not postmenopausal. Perimenopause is MUCH different. It’s very common to be hyped up sexually during perimenopause. It’s Mother Nature’s last-ditch effort to get you pregnant.
I’ve suspected that my increased libido is Mother Nature’s way of ramping things up to possibly create offspring. I guess I’ll have different answers when I’m post-menopausal. How long does perimenopause last?
I like my libido. I like my husband. I like that I like my husband and he likes me. It would be sad to lose what we have. Do I need to talk to my doctor about hormone replacement therapy?
Lovisa,
“How long does perimenopause last?”
Idk. Average age for menopause is 52.
“Do I need to talk to my doctor about hormone replacement therapy?”
I’m not a fan unless of it unless you feel you absolutely need it. If your symptoms are really bad. And some women do have really bad symptoms. I would assume that … changes are a comin ‘ … it’s life. Both men and women experience it as they get older. My advice is … don’t turn 50. 🙂
Lovisa,
„ Do I need to talk to my doctor about hormone replacement therapy?“
If you need to ask, you probably don’t need to talk to him;)
no, honestly, as Marcia said, if you‘ve got symptoms that bother you very much, you can consider it, but it’s not a must- it’s very individual, and I would inform myself well in addition to asking the doctor. And symptoms can be very unspecific and not only concerning libido, it could be migraine, insomnia, anxiety, fatigue, brain fog, bloating, hair loss, joint pain, etc etc.
I wish I‘d know how long perimenopause lasts too… but that seems to be very individual too..
Sex is great and you should try to hang onto it as you two age. Our sex life, between my wife and I, has never been static in our 30+ years of marriage. It’s a constant work in progress. My wife is postmenopausal, has been for many years. At this point in time we’re using more non penetrative sex because of changes to her vagina. I apply the “first, do no harm” principle to myself. Sex doesn’t have to be perfect to be great. My libido has stayed high and I’m on medicine that delays orgasm. This isn’t the porn world (which too if you think about it, watching is a sort of LE), so I can either focus on what I do have with my wife or what I don’t have and I’ve chosen to be happy and enjoy what I have. All this to say that going on hormone therapy is not automatic. It’s something you and your husband need to discuss but ultimately you decide if it’s right for you and not simply because all the cool women are doing it.
@Lovisa,
I *thought* what I was going through was really bad anxiety and insomnia due to perimenopause… I was given HRT (birth control) to try to help with those symptoms (secondary side effect)… they just gave me more periods and sore breasts! I got off it and eventually the anxiety and insomnia went away (it was due to the divorce). Do not recommend unless absolutely necessary by MD.
Thanks for the tips! My biggest perimenopause symptom is heart palpitations. Because of the palpitations, I don’t actually know what my maximum heart rate is supposed to be. For example, yesterday it hit 215 BpM. My palpitations usually only last a few minutes. My longest lasting palpitation was 12 minutes at a 10k race. I didn’t know I was having a heart palpitation until I stopped running and looked at my watch. It’s been going on for a few years. It throws things off on my sports watch. My doctor isn’t concerned, but sometimes I wonder if it’s more concerning than she realizes.
Thanks for sharing your personal experiences, everyone!
Hi Lovisa,
I don’t know much about heart palpitations, they seem to be a common symptom of hormone fluctuations, but you could ask a cardiologist to make sure it’s not something else!
Really interesting questions, thank you! I have wondered at length about all of this, since there are so many life changes and situations going at the same time that it’s hard to disentangle which affects the other and which things are unrelated. I’m in my late 40s and in perimenopause, and taking HRT.
“How has menopause affected your libido?”
I don’t have a massive libido and haven’t particularly noticed it increasing or decreasing in the last couple of years since I’ve been in perimenopause or since starting HRT, although my mood is a bit more stable since starting HRT which makes me more likely to want sex.
How closely was libido tied to your limerence before (i.e. did limerence generally make you more lusty)?
I don’t think it’s tied to limerence. This is one of the things that I found confusing about limerence: I thought it was just a libido thing but either sex or self-pleasure didn’t seem to shake off the intrusive thoughts. Now from reading all your stuff here I can see that limerence isn’t necessarily about sex, and it’s more about pair bonding. This aligns with my experience. Obviously it is a sexual attraction, but sex is not the main motivator even in my fantasy world.
Did going through menopause change the experience of limerence for you? Did the strength of limerent feelings change?
I haven’t fully been through menopause yet. This is my first limerent experience for many years so I don’t think there would be a “before” and “after” comparison. But I do keep wondering whether the limerent episode and the perimenopause are somehow related.
If you were in a long-term relationship before menopause, did the transition affect your feelings towards your partner?
Good question! I think there are plenty of other explanations for why this limerent episode started. There were a number of external factors which caused me to feel distant from my husband and not fancy him for a while. Given that these factors explain how the limerent episode started and continued, it’s hard to tell whether perimenopause was an additional contributing factor or not.
My husband and I have talked quite a bit about middle age, and the challenges to relationships and finding a life purpose at the age we are at and with kids at the age of our kids. This is common to both men and women. Menopause is another factor thrown into the mix.
Ultimately I think the only way to find out whether menopause increases the risk of limerence, would be to do a large study of men and women and to see whether there is a peak in limerent experiences for women at this age that doesn’t happen in men.
1. How has menopause affected your libido?
I absolutely had a temporary phase of increased libido during peri-menopause! My understanding of this phenomena is that as the body starts to struggle to ovulate, it can ramp up the hormones in response to try and force an ovulation. The ramped up mid-cycle hormones elevate libido.
2. Did limerence generally make you more lusty?
Oh yes! My peri-menopause started before my LE, but the LE definitely compounded its impact on my libido.
3. Did going through menopause change the experience of limerence for you?
4. Did the strength of limerent feelings change?
No. I am not convinced my fluctuating hormones had much effect on my limerence.
I think the timing of my LE was related to being in mid-life at the same time as meeting someone that strongly triggered me and was triggered by me.
During my LE, I have progressed through menopause and come out the other side (but I am taking HRT). I do not believe this transition really affected my libido or the strength of my limerent feelings. I think it is just elapsed time that has calmed the obsessive nature of my LE to a very much manageable level.
There was a phase of menopause where I was extremely irritable with everyone, and being the self aware type this made me feel very low and anxious. This intensified my limerent feelings (good and bad) temporarily as my mind automatically tried but failed to boost my mood using LE fantasy.
5. If you were in a long-term relationship before menopause, did the transition affect your feelings towards your partner? Yes and No…
In a way it has subtly affected all my relationships: I am more assertive, care even less about what people think, am far less willing to play unpaid, under-appreciated servant to my family and thus I live more for myself. My SO and I have slightly more independent lives as a result, but our feelings are mostly unchanged.
Miss Lovisa
Den mother where are you? I miss the woman that helped me from the start. (Also Limmey come back to us. And frederico my brother.) Hope you and the Mister put Miss Lovisa into the microwave to get her hot are doing well. Not long ago I took the time to avoid a wolf spider so I didn’t spook him. Or kill him. Give me a thousand wasps over one spider and I’ll be fine. Hope your family is well and things are positive. I have a lot of love for you Miss Lovisa.
It is strange that a week or so after overcoming my 35 yr LE, I come across an NPR article that leads me to this blog. I really could have used this site at any point in the previous 35 yrs LOL! At times, the non-stop imaginary conversations and replaying of past events with the LO really had me questioning my sanity. It felt at times that I was giving 20% of my life thinking about the LO. No, I did not want to but I couldn’t control it. I was getting afraid that on my deathbed I’d be one of those guys who at the end calls out for their secret past love in front of his wife. I’m a male, heterosexual. I have nothing to say on postmenopausal limerence other than I find all this fascinating. Even though our experiences are different, there is some underlying things that we share. I really thought I was alone in having what I now know to be the LE. In scanning the site, yeah I did do all the suggestions at some point. Those didn’t really work for me but they were helpful. I suspect every LE is unique and it’s a process, so they are good advice to try. My success came in what I would more describe as akin to a Joseph Campbell hero’s journey psychological death of the archetype (from Jungian psychology), the LO. This was very difficult to do because my mental creation of the LO of course felt very real. I hesitated the first couple of tries. But finally I accepted that in killing the psychological LO, I am killing nothing real but rather an invention confined to my own brain. I need to add that I harbor no ill will or hatred towards the actual real person who was the LO. Hell, I don’t really even know the real person behind the LO. The past me, who is no longer real, only knew the past young woman, who equally is unreal in the present, but I carried this invention in my mind for 35 years and as we all know the stories we invent feel so damn real. See the movie or read the book Cloud Atlas for a more complete view of time and the real. When LO pops into my head I quickly see her as a paper photo image that I rip apart. That did the trick for me. I finally feel free after all this time.
To Hamlet:
Wow, 35 years! I don’t know how you survived that. My LE has been about 2-1/2 years and counting, but I can see the end in sight. Even that length of time is too long.
I find I have had to demonize my LO more than I would like to in order to break free. He has plenty of bad qualities, no problem there, but I would like to have an indifferent attitude rather than a negative one.
I am going to do the paper-ripping. That is brilliant.
Take the win and allow it to be negative, LOL. If he was a predator or abuser, please allow yourself to be negative. If he was just a bad boyfriend but not really harmful then I think you’re on the right path. I’m glad you’re figuring this out quicker than I did.
He certainly wasn’t a predator or a bad boyfriend. He’s gay and we have been friends for a while. I became limerent for him after knowing him for a couple of years.
He’s simply inattentive and very short-tempered. He has snapped at me multiple times over nothing, which is very hurtful to me. He is flaky and does not follow through on things he says he will do.
So, his behavior is not the end of the world, but bad enough to be very painful. I got tired of walking on eggshells.
ND,
I think Hamlet is likely to win this year’s Limmy for longest LE. He may be in the running for a lifetime achievement award but those usually to a limerent with a large body of work over life.
To L.E.:
Well, I hope you will consider me for Oldest Post-Menopausal Limerent. I think I have that one locked up.
LE,
It’s too bad Nisor doesn’t come around anymore. Her and ND would probably get along well.
To MJ:
Tell me about Nisor.
Nisor was older, like yourself, if I’m not mistaken. She was limerent for someone that lasted years. A gentleman from her younger days. I forgot a lot of her story.
She was a positive presence around here for awhile. Quoted a lot from the Bible. Think she went away because this place was bringing her down. Either that or she felt like it was time to move on.
If you search back in the blogs from a few years ago, you’ll probably find something. I remember around 2023-24, I was still chatting with her, so you shouldn’t have to look too far back.
Miss Nisor was definitely a positive influence to me. She helped me wrestle with my limerence and my own faith. Not that MJ hasn’t, and a lot of others. But like Miss Lovisa, Miss Nisor was like a mother figure to me. Speaking from years of life wisdom and her iconic faith. There are a lot that have come and gone in the going on 3 years I have been here. Of those that left Miss Nisor and frederico are the two I miss the most. Some others come back and post sporadically. But when they said they were leaving they never came back to posting. Hopefully they lurk and know how much they helped me on a personal level.
To Adam and MJ:
No offense to Ms. Nisor, but I can do without the Bible stuff.
Dear Hamlet, welcome to this forum!
Wow, what an accomplishment!
I am curious as to whether most of these years were spent NC, LC, or if you had sporadic contact.
I also find it incredible that you’ve managed to have an excellent relationship with your SO through all these years. Do you believe that your LE may have affected it, at least on the margins?
Also, do you believe that your LE was already fading in the latter years, or was it running full throttle all these years, and ended abruptly only after you mastered the paper tearing technique?
I have had several LE’s, occupying probably the majority of my teenage to adult life. The first two were unrequited loves, and the third was the residue of a breakup of an actual, tumultuous relationship. I got married at the age of 40, almost 23 years ago, to a wonderful woman who soon became my soulmate, and continues to be to this date. However, I have never been especially sexually attracted to her. Except for the first year or so, our sex life had, until recently, been virtually non-existent. I believe this unfullfilled need set the stage for another sequence of LE’s, each of whom I found sexually attractive. The most recent one, whom I’ve discussed in prior posts, had an intensity rivalling those from my high school and college days. Over the past few months, I have been following this wonderful site, and learned a lot about limerance. However, my progress to date has been incremental, and full of relapses, despite extremely low contact. I have yet to discover the “trick” that will finally break the limerance.
I look forward to learning about your insights that helped you to end the limerance. And again, congratulations on your dual feats of ending your limerance and your thriving marriage!
Catcyclist, your story is very interesting! Let me see if I understood. You married a woman at the age of 40 who doesn’t arouse sexual desire in you, you’ve been happily married for 23 years without sexual relations and you recently became more attracted to your wife? Fascinating! Perhaps I misunderstood. Is she also unaroused by you? So interesting! Please forgive my direct questions. No need to respond if you don’t want to.
Lovisa,
Thanks for asking me to clarify!
We were married when we were both 40; we are now 63. We had met through a match-making service, and are both immigrants of the same ethnicity, with me residing in the West for the majority of my life, and she for half of it now. We quickly became soul mates and developed a mutual respect and admiration for each other. My physical attraction for her at that time was minimal, and decreased further as time passed. We did initially have a sexual relationship, but that too almost totally disappeared within a few years. In all other respects, it has been a near-ideal marriage. She is funny, generous, kind, and tolerant. I am an anxious, shy introvert; she is a relatively easy going extrovert. The lack of sex and attraction was the only significant issue. She tells me that she finds me attractive; however, she has a relatively low sex drive, so it was not a major issue for her not to have sex. For me, the issue was sexual attraction for other women, which I never acted upon, but which nevertheless caused me much distress, especially when I became limerant towards two of these women — the first one, only five years into the marriage, and the second, about two years ago.
Until I came to this group, I believed that my lack of sex and attraction to my wife was causing me to become limerant towards other women. While that may be partially true for me, I can see cases in this group of couples who have satisfactory sexual relations, and still become limerant for others. Anyway, a little over a year ago, I sought the help of a therapist to help me with my dual problems of an absent sex life and limerance, although I did not know the meaning of the word at that time. By focussing on developing intimacy (that may or may not lead to sex), and leaning heavily on the ideas of Esther Perel, she (the therapist) has helped us improve our sex life somewhat, though not yet to the place where I’d like it, but has tremendously improved the quality of our marriage overall .
Just a little more about my early years. Due in large part to growing up as a brown immigrant in conservative, nearly white neighborhoods, where many people had little exposure to other ethnicities, I led a rather isolated life, and developed a rather poor self-esteem and especially had an inferiority complex around girls and women. In fact, earlier this year I wrote a long essay about this topic that I showed only to my therapist. I never had a girlfriend or even went out on dates; instead, I had sequential unrequited loves. I attribute my recent and current LOs to wanting to re-create the attention from girlfriends I never had. Anytime I get a morsel of attention, and especially if she even loosely reminds me of a girl I once knew, I am smitten. And wracked with shame, secrecy and guilt. First my therapist, and now this group, have helped me tremendously. So maybe there is hope afterall.
Thanks again for asking, Lovisa.
Thanks for adding details to your story, Catcyclist. It sounds like you have a mostly satisfying marriage and your therapist is helping you improve.
Hi CataCyclist, thanks for the welcome. I’ll answer the first question tonight. For two years in college and for about 6 months or so afterwards there was occasional contact with the LO. For the next 30 years, there was NC. For the last 2 years there was NC but FB and Internet stalking. The LE was more or less ever present from 1989 until 2015 when I started Cymbalta for general anxiety disorder that had gone undiagnosed until then, age 46. Cymbalta was life changing and thoughts of the LO went from daily to just occasional intrusions up until about 2 years ago when I stopped taking Cymbalta. 3 months after going off the drug I was helping my son build a shed and he played music from the 80s-90s while we worked. The music (obviously combined with no longer taking Cymbalta) triggered a flood of old memories including of the LO. The dormant LE started immediately up again in full force. I went right back on Cymbalta but the LE didn’t go away. For the last two years the LE was very intense.
To Hamlet:
Your story is so interesting. Why did you stop taking Cymbalta in the first place?
To Norma, there are two answers that came into play in that decision. First… I don’t know the scientific rate but most who take a drug for addiction, mental health, etc., almost always try to get off the drug at some point or another. It’s the nature of the beast. It’s a well know cycle… You feel crappy, you take the drug, you feel better, everything is great, you convince yourself you don’t need the drug, you stop taking the drug, you feel crappy (repeat) Second…. the first time I took Cymbalta, it was like drinking two beers without any mental impairment. Very relaxing which was OMG a whole new sensation and way of living. I had no idea how the rest of the world lived. But after many years Cymbalta had somewhat stalled out for me or more accurately I didn’t feel the euphoria that initially came from taking it. LOL! I was trying to see if I took a drug holiday and came back on it, if the euphoria would return. Nope.
Hi Hamlet,
Your story becomes more interesting each time you add details!
Was your initial period of NC “enforced” NC, either by you or your LO, or was it just a gradual drifting away? Also, when you say “more or less ever present”, I take it to mean that the LE was a distraction, but not so bad that it destroyed your whole life. Is that a correct interpretation? The incident with your listening to the music is remarkable not only in that it triggered a dormant LE, but that it lasted a full two years! Such is the earthquake-like power of limerance! I guess most of us can relate to that; I’m trying to avoid continuing triggers myself, and put my current episode behind me!
In any case, I hope you are able to continue your success in quelling this LE!
Hi CatCyclist,
Yes the LE absolutely affected my relationship with my SO. I never was truly present with my wife. That’s a sin. I’m an atheist so in my atheistic mortality, I broke the Kantian moral imperative of not using my SO as an object, as a means to my own ends. I took the SO for granted which nobody in a relationship deserves. My LE made me feel shame from living a lie. I really wanted to be with someone else the whole time, the LO. This also brought deep sadness. The best analogy I can think of for me to describe the overall affect caused by my LE on my relationship with my SO that didn’t have any tangible real world consequences is that my LE was an opportunity cost (finance) to my relationship with my SO.
To give you more context, I have some version of or to some extent hyperthymesia. It’s not a continual recording. There is a Borges short story based on a real person with 100% hyperthymesia and I’m more akin to say 2%. Mine is strongly associated with “recording” conversations rather than any purely visual observation and stress(anxiety) seems to be interwoven in picking what my brain “records”. Such memories don’t fade like I believe they do with most people until whatever stress made me record it gets resolved. Even then it’s not a memory wipe, just more like the memories get put in a file that I don’t open. I think that is one part of why my LE lasted so long and how it can be so strong over time.
Hi Hamlet,
Replying to both of your messages.
Your hyperthymesia (I had to look it up) certainly makes it easier to understand why a LE would linger for so long, as opposed to gradually fading away or being overtaken by another LE. Thanks for adding this context. I can see what a burden it must have been for you.
I too have “anchor memories”, in the form of imagery and conversations, both oral and written; although it’s highly unlikely I have hyperthymesia. One of these is over 40 years old, from one of the most painful LEs of my life. I still have this memory, but once I got a firm rejection from her, along with a message that we cannot be friends, the uncertainty was totally removed, and the LE almost completely went away. Then I exercised my freedom to find new LOs, to go through several more euphoria/despair cycles, with the tradeoff always negative.
Otherwise, almost everything you said regarding your SO also resonates with me.
Hope we can learn from each other, along with everyone else here.
Hello again, Hamlet,
I forgot to include your name in the header of my previous post; hope you can find it above (or below?).
Hamlet,
Congratulations! But 35 years, wow. Such a shame it took you so long to find this community.
I am definitely going to do the paper-ripping thing. Thanks for the description.
Thanks. Yeah but so glad that it is over. I really can’t describe the feeling. I guess the next year or so will tell if I’m really cured. Addiction has been used on this site too describe some cases of LE and I can’t disagree with that necessarily. So it’s never really over in that case but having carried it around for 35 yrs I can tell when the load has been removed. Finding this place is just the power of the Internet, cell phones, AI. As these things go, the NPR FB page to this blog showed up this morning in my FB feed. Too funny. Now the whole Internet marketing universe is going to direct me to this site.
Hi All,
Just jumping in to say thank you for all the brilliant insights. Keep them coming!
I met a man 6 years ago that I haven’t been able to let go of, we went on 5 dates and then some radio silence, I assumed he just wasn’t interested but months later he contacted me, we’d get together, sometimes cancel, so sporadic meetings consisting of great conversation, sometimes intimacy but never achieving enough regular contact for me to understand what was happening.
After the first year I met a nice man, we’ve been together ever since but I haven’t been able to completely commit because I can’t get the other guy out of my head, it’s painful to say the least, seems as long as I think there’s a chance with the first guy I can’t commit to the other.
I honestly didn’t think the first man wanted a relationship and was too afraid to ask, now I chance hurting a nice guy that loves me because my brain thinks it loves the other man.
Limerence sucks.
Happened to me. Open ends suck. Met this guy who went into radio silence after a few dates, just when I felt ready to open up to him more. Missed having this opportunity for about 2 years after that and sometimes hoped to bump into him again but in the meantime I met my SO. Forgot about this other guy. I did see him around from time to time from a distance, didn’t feel compelled to say hello because I made up my mind back then that he probably wasn’t the one back then because of his lack of interest. And I payed attention to the things I didnt like about him. However I still kept a certain sympathy for him, but I was totally okay with distancing myself from ever wanting anything with him anymore. I forgot about him for a long time…..until he popped up again after 7 years! I was in my ‘buddhist phase’ at the time and determined to ‘hold no grudges’ towards anyone so I decided to say Hi, without much thinking. He told me he’d even forgotten my name (!!!)but said he recognized my face and asked me to reconnect on facebook. At this point in the conversation I already deeply regretted what I had done by coming up and talk to him. But it was too late. He started reaching out again and secretly I liked it. Over the next few years I found myself increasingly tempted to grab his attention. I really wasn’t aware of what I was doing. At some point I found myself yearning for him. And then we met again. Wham! That’s the moment when the glimmer hit me for the very first time. It was obvious to my friends who were there with me that this guy seemed really into me. I couldn’t describe it but I see the build up to that moment. No escape possible for LE to unfold from that moment onward.
My LE lasted 35 yrs, not to scare you, LOL. Details of my story are posted above. Different obviously but eerily similar in the basic story. You’re not alone and you can resolve this. You’re decades ahead of where I was at my 6 yrs point. I resolved my LE on my own so I can’t really attest to the paid resources available here but definitely read as much as you can here, continue to blog, and consider the paid stuff offered if you can afford. It was only in the last year that I came to the realization that there is a Jungian archetype component to the LO. Or at least that is my belief. I have been in therapy at times but of course I could never bring up the LE. Hell, I rationalized the LE as what must be true love so why would I cure myself of it? Personally I was most afraid that I’d call out the name of the LO while making love to my wife. Luckily that never happened. My point is that one thing I would have done differently looking back is treat my LE (35 yrs!) as the mental health condition it was and seek out mental health resources like on this website or with a therapist.
Dr. Tom’s questions got me thinking about the relationship between limerence and being pre- or post-menopausal. I find that I can come to no conclusions because of so many other extenuating circumstances.
I had one other limerent experience in my life, in my late twenties, that was intense and painful. It was with a boyfriend who broke up with me, but I continued to carry a torch for him for a couple of years. If I am remembering correctly, it was quite a bit more painful than what I am experiencing now.
Fast-forward to now. Menopause is in the distant rear-view mirror, and I was shocked to find myself limerent for someone who has zero interest in me. As I mentioned above, it was thrilling to feel like a teenager again, but it has been extremely problematic. I feel that I am working my way out of limerence just fine, even though it is going more slowly than I would like.
I just now experienced a sense of well-being that I don’t think I would have had back in my twenties. I have been very good to LO, frankly, better than he deserves. I feel good about myself due to the way I treat him, and others. My opinion of LO, sadly, has gone downhill, primarily due to the way he treats his mother, and the way he treats me.
I feel a sense of gratitude somehow, although I am not 100% sure what for. I don’t know if this is hormonal, or just learning how to deal with life’s disappointments better.
👍
Haven’t posted here in over a year, but saw an NPR article that brought me back. (You can read my previous posts in “Dealing with limerence in marriage.”)
My wife had been premenopausal for a couple of years prior to limerence. Didn’t seem to affect her desire at all, but her hormones were so erratic that her body didn’t always cooperate. At the onset of limerence, her interest in me was completely supplanted by her interest in the LO. She became fully menopausal about a year into limerence, so I don’t know how it might have affected that.
We were under immense stress before limerence, attributed to multiple successive traumas in our respective families. But I’ve often wondered if The Change itself also contributed to it. (She told me early on that she would kill me outright if I suggested as much to her.) By extension, as menopause starts to finally fade, I wonder if it may have also helped to prolong her limerence.
She’s finally starting to deteriorate, and hopefully we can soon reflect on the questions posted above. But I’ll be watching this space for your experiences, thoughts, and opinions.
Hi Jay!
You two are still together? That is great news!
Hope you got your Grand Canyon in before the burn – friends wanted to repeat in Sept, but we already hiked Yosemite in July, so it’s good. Until then, it’s time to think about where to take next year’s epic hike….!
Things got better around Thanksgiving – she actually gave me a nice Valentine’s Day card and sweet thoughts for our anniversary – but slowly reverted in April, leaned in again in August, then backed away again this month.
Wife is obviously deeply conflicted, my coach suggests she may not trust anyone could ever forgive her, including herself. This week she will see our therapist for the first time in 18 months, I hope she can find the answers she’s looking for.
As for me, everything else in my life is terrific. I’ve never looked or felt better! The only thing missing is someone special to share it with. I’m anxious to pursue my vision of the future, I hope my wife chooses to come along. But we’re close to where I can honestly say I’ve done all I could.
Alas, my Rim to rim ambition is on hold for now. However, I have some exciting news about it. My SO has been training to run a 50-mile ultra marathon. He is in great shape! We are planning to run a 50-miler together soon. Because of our training, I feel confident that he and I are in good enough shape to do rim to rim together. Hopefully, the trails will reopen for next year.
Yosemite sounds nice! I’ve never been. I hope you find something exciting for next year.
The hot and cold treatment from your wife would be challenging. I’m impressed that you two are still together after the struggles you’ve endured. It sounds like she cut contact with her LO, but she has a lot of guilt for her past behavior. I don’t know how you have been able to forgive her especially when she can’t forgive herself. Maybe she needs to hear it from you. Maybe she needs to hear that you forgave her infidelity. I hope her therapy appointment goes well.
I’m glad to hear so much optimism from you about the future!
On the subject of libido and limerance …
I find that, for me, libido and limerance do not have much correlation. My libido has decreased gradually over my six plus decade life, but much to my chagrin, my tendence to become limerant every five years or so has not abated. Although my libido, expressed as ability to perform, is far less than a few decades ago, the mental component of it is still present. Also, while I have been sexually attracted to my LO’s, unfortunately more so than with my wife, being sexually attracted to a woman, by itself, does not lead to a woman becoming an LO. That requires an equally or more intense spiritual component, and perhaps even more importantly, a sense of idealization of the LO. That is the true objectification.
I want to clarify that I have never acted on my urges with any of my LOs. My LEs have always been “in my head”. If I have ever let my true feelings slip, it has always been accidental, via a Freudian slip or two, or my awkward behavior around the LO.
Interesting to try to tease out correlation (hopefully causation).
I am peri-menopausal. Still am. I had bloodwork done, and all the indicators of peri-menopause are there.
I would say my LE was in the starting phases of perimenopause – that “last ditch” effort for Mother Nature to get a pregnancy feels “true” (subjective).
During the LE, I would not say libido was higher overall (I did not for eg, wish to have more sex with my SO). I was lusting after LO though.
SO and I divorced part way through perimenopause.
My interest in LO, sexual or otherwise, dropped during this time, slowly but surely, and I was over him before the divorce papers were finalized. At this point, if you were to tell me to have sex with LO I would be “ugh” (I know, I know, isn’t it amazing? That I could ever reach this point. You can too!)
I was generally not particularly interested in sex with anyone, though my girlfriends, bless them, kept giving recommendations for their favorite sex toys.
I dated someone. My libido went up – but only specific to him (new relationship energy). Because this was not limerence, it didn’t feel crazy, but it was interesting to come to the conclusion that I just didn’t want sex with ex-SO, but someone I was more sexually compatible with, sure. Or maybe it was the honeymoon phase. We broke up. Now when I think of him, I feel I could have sex with him (and probably enjoy it) but I do not feel like I particularly need to. It’s a “take it or leave it” feeling, which is different from the “definitely not” that I have for both ex-SO and ex-LO.
One thing that is interesting, which may inform Dr L’s exploration into this topic is that it has been noted that A LOT of divorces happen when women are peri-menopausal. Some have speculated that there is a “fondness” hormone that drops during peri-menopause, and suddenly, women are no longer willing to tolerate what they had for years. Other speculation (sorry, I don’t have links) are that psychologically when there are young children involved, women tend to tolerate more from men generally (because they need the protection of men). Note none of this is conscious or deliberate. It’s just like when the context and hormone change, suddenly the priorities are different. This is even so, even in the “dating market” where women’s value drops with age – you’d think they would hang onto the guy they have. But no. More women than men file for divorce.
So where does limerence factor in all this? Not tidily. I feel in my case, as I had been resisting divorcing for years (almost a decade) limerence did give me a hard push to finally make a decision. It wasn’t so linear as “I want to be with LO, therefore I divorced my SO”, but more a like, hey, your relationship with SO seriously lacks something, look at it, look at it, look at it!
My life now, by the way, is much much better. Right now, there is no romantic connection in my life (fresh air of relief!) so libido is not particularly high for this peri-menopausal divorcee.
Hi Mila,
I went to reply to you (your post to Norma that mentioned me) in the other coffeehouse, but it has closed, so I have moved it here instead.
Being able to ramble it all out here has been beneficial for me as well. It stopped me acting out so much of it with LO (I became talkative here at a time I was very close)- gave me another place to process it, with helpful replies.
But – I do know what you mean about it not feeling right to post too much / too often now. My reasons might be different to yours, but it’s because I feel less urgency to my LE issues with now … and I read bits from newer posters whose issues are now more pressing and urgent. So I feel I don’t want to clog up too many of the comments these days.
On the reverse-side, I think some of the banter and warmth between us old timers helps to keep this place lighter and seem welcoming. And who knows, we might say something reflecting back, that helps someone who is in the thick of it right now (even someone just passively watching the page) – to know that there is ‘the other side’ that can be reached.
I suppose I’m saying please keep dropping in from time to time until you don’t want to anymore and there is no benefit in it for you.
I also want to know how Imho is doing. 📢💃how are you? Don’t disappear before you get to tell me why the 🚜is so funny for you!
And you asked me some questions a while back that I’d made a mental note to answer when I had more time – broadly, do I think my LE could reignite under any circumstances, and could it survive the test of her partnering up? And well, I’m here now, so I’ll have a little ramble for old times sake.
On re-ignition, I think probably not. I still see flashes of what made her seem so attractive before, but it is fewer and further between. The only way it could ramp back up is if she massively changed her behaviours back towards ones that pull me in. And even that would probably need to happen to a higher level than before, as I now have the whole view including flaws that I was lacking when in the thick of LE. Anyway, I don’t think she could even change the behaviours back that way (assuming she even wanted to) without more encouragement from my side. It takes two to tango – Marcia has described before it well as ‘a ratchet mechanism’. I need to drop pencils in front of her, for her to be able to pick them up! And I now know the danger of dropping them. On the friendship level though, things are still steady and pleasant between us.
Things are in a much better space with my SO since the LE dialled down, and that feels really welcome. Truth to tell, I got into the LE when that was rocky, and I think as long as the LE was there, the SO matters could only be addressed so far. I knew that, but it took a long time for the visceral death of hope to catch up.
I now find myself increasingly less inclined to spend more time with LO than I need to. Last week was a classic example where all I wanted at the end of the week was to get home to SO – a year ago I would have been looking for reasons to hang out with LO.
So could friendship with her survive through her partnering up? It would inevitably go to a lower level again, but I think I could now deal with that. Intellectually, I’d say yes it could be OK. I think a partner for her would benefit her and make her happier, and I feel like she deserves that for herself. I want to say – I’d be happy about it if she was happy about it.
But … I don’t know if, emotionally, it would play out like that. I think the sticking point would be that (without having any real right to), I’d probably have a high bar for what kind of man ‘deserves’ her and would treat her well. Her selections in the past have not been exemplary (according to her, and also from experience of some I knew). There was a guy still orbiting her around the time my LE started, who had promised her a lot and then messed her about/failed to deliver it. I know him and still feel strong dislike towards him for that. This is what I mean about having a high bar – I have no real right or reason to feel such dislike towards him, but it is there all the same. I wouldn’t rule out that I could get hit in the same way if she chose another man who didn’t treat her brilliantly. I had to bite my tongue so much just to let her eventually come to her own realisations about him, and I’m not sure I’d have the patience to do that again. So I still don’t want to raise a white flag and say “this friendship is safe whatever happens”. Though like I said to you last time, it’s going about as well as I can hope it would in the circumstances.
Hope everything is going OK with you as you continue to process the changes in how you’re feeling.
Hi LaR,
Thanks for your answers and updates!
I think everything sounds really good. As I said to Bewitched, I think if one has managed to reach a certain stage of freedom or independence, it’s best not to insist on an absolutely clear cut and definitive closure, but to just let it fade out by its own. Sure, there might be some minor ups and downs (going round that snail house..), but the main load is gone.
Might be that you’d have a stronger reaction than you would like if she partners up, but that would be normal and human, I guess! Also, wouldn’t we all wish for a decent partner for all our friends, ex-LOs or not? Only if no one would be good enough for her and you would be jealous, not worried, that would be a bit of a step back, but actually it might just show you how you might have misjudged her and her taste, which in consequence could dampen limerence even more.
All in all, I’m very glad that you managed to move on so well without the drama I made of it (accusing conversations in tropical rain nights etc)and especially that things with your SO are better now.
Who knows, if your LO partners up with an interesting guy, you could finally all of you (including SO) get to be friends…
I‘m in a good place right now, enjoy my family, exercise etc.
Text exchange on my initiative with XLO yesterday because I felt the duty to ask how he is, but ended the conversation at some point politely.
As I mentioned in my post, death of hope for the friend I longed to have in him, has occurred. I can still appreciate him, but I also feel that it’s good to keep some distance without too many texts. I‘m definitely out of the mess, I guess.
Thanks for caring, LaR!
So! Imho, where are you?
Mila,
Here’s a question: What if the LO hooks up with an SO who’s … I’m going to throw it out there … much better-looking or much more successful or a completely different personality type. The limerent thought their LO was into their personality type … but it turns out they’re into something else.
Would that throw the limerent a little bit? Hurt their ego?
Hi Marcia,
I guess it depends on the limerent- at which stage of limerence they are, what personality type…
I think solely the fact of the LO partnering up would throw any limerent, to be honest.
When I think of myself in such a scenario… hmm..
I guess it would be easier for me to call it a defeat? I mean, if they are that obviously into someone who is completely different than me, it would help death of hope. If the new SO would be more successful or attractive, well, the same, actually. It might prolong limerence more if I had a sense of „ she‘s not good enough for him“.
But I’m not sure, to be honest.
LaR,
my dramatic talks were not disclosing, if you mean that, they were about our different ways to conduct a friendship. Of course any other LO would have addressed the possibility of more-than-friends-feelings in these talks at the latest, but that’s one of the traits of my possibly neurodivergent LO that make this friendship a bit exasperating, he can’t talk about this stuff. And I really was disappointed in him as a friend because I thought he was capable of being more of a friend. My mistake, as I see now, he‘s simply really not capable.
Since your LO has never been that exasperating or confusing in her friendship, no talks about it were necessary, and that’s a good thing!
Mila,
I wonder if you always knew a bit about this ‘incapability’ on your xLO’s part, but your limerence inflated both your expectations of it and your irritation when he couldn’t deliver it?
As much as you can, try and accept it as part of his neurodivergence and just be what you can be with him and don’t expect more. But I hear you that it’s a disappointment that he can’t give what you hoped he would. And that it can’t always be one way traffic in that or any friendship.
“Since your LO has never been that exasperating or confusing in her friendship, no talks about it were necessary, and that’s a good thing!”
I mean – she does have her few exasperating ways. But I’ll say this – she was a good person to go through an LE with, if I had to go through it with anyone. With 95 people out of 100, I think this would all have blown up in my face much worse. She dealt well with being on the other end of it. Always pretty consistent and didn’t blow either too hot or cold on me.
I’m grateful for that, and it says a lot for her as a friend that she kept stability and tolerated the odd ways that limerence made me behave in. I used to sing her praises too much on here, but I genuinely feel that part even looking back. When I hear how some other LwL members have been treated by their LOs, I know luck was on my side with how she responded.
Mila,
I guess I’m asking because we limerents like to tell ourselves (well, at least I did) that if things were different (the LO was available) … he’d pick me. But maybe he wouldn’t.
LaR,
„ I wonder if you always knew a bit about this ‘incapability’ on your xLO’s part, but your limerence inflated both your expectations of it and your irritation when he couldn’t deliver it?“
It’s more that limerence made me seek out or depend on things I expected him to be able to give. I think even when not limerent I thought I would be able to talk to him seriously or get emotional support when the need would arise, the need just wasn’t there until he moved away and I got limerent. Our mutual friend said „you see only now what we‘ve all seen all the time“.
But limerence certainly inflated my irritation.
Still, I think, like you, that he was a good person to go through an LE with, because he also had a certain consistency and genuinely cared in his tongue-tied way.
Marcia,
the funny thing is, I‘m not sure if I would have wanted my LOs if we both would have been available. Probably by force of limerence, yes, but I think they would t have been right for me.
I have 3 XLOs and with 2 of them I’m sure there was at least a phase where they definitely would have picked me , and the third one probably too if there wouldn’t be an age gap and I think that might have counted for him (hints about if we met sooner or he would have been born sooner etc).
But then, as I said, I don’t know how I would have reacted if they all would have been suddenly available and directly picking me. Maybe limerence would have vanished in an instant, since it relies so much on unfulfilled desire, uncertainty, dreams… Limerence is such a weird beast, especially for happily married people. I don’t need it again, I finally think.
Mila,
“I have 3 XLOs and with 2 of them I’m sure there was at least a phase where they definitely would have picked me , and the third one probably too if there wouldn’t be an age gap and I think that might have counted for him (hints about if we met sooner or he would have been born sooner etc).”
Of course I don’t know your LOs, but when I think of my last big LO, who disclosed and definitely showed interest … but what did that mean? He gets out of a long-term marriage and who knows what he would have done? He could have dated a bunch of women or had another woman in mind (he and I didn’t have a lot in common) or maybe he would have been a mess from the divorce and he wouldn’t have dated anyone. Or maybe we would have gone on a date or two and then the whole thing petered out. Hard to say. That I would have ended up with him in a serious relationship? I think it’s a long shot. It’s a long shot with anyone. Why is an LO any different?
” Maybe limerence would have vanished in an instant, since it relies so much on unfulfilled desire, uncertainty, dreams… ”
That’s true.
Marcia,
you are right, one never knows how it would play out in reality. I guess in my cases, we would have started something , whatsoever, dating, and when the first euphoria would have died down, trouble would have started, in case of LO1 big time trouble (narcissist), we wouldn’t have gotten along (is that a word?) in almost all LO cases, for different reasons.
As I said, I think LO2 would probably have declined anyway, being too young for me, he was after a family and all. But the other two, they would have played along in the beginning, I’m pretty sure. Me, I never get limerent without reciprocation.
But what does it matter/mean? Not much, actually!
I wish so much you would meet a decent guy soon. Cannot understand why the decent ones are not queuing at your door, for a witty woman with a big heart like you!
Mila,
“Me, I never get limerent without reciprocation.”
I don’t, either.
“But what does it matter/mean? Not much, actually!”
That’s what I’m trying to say. Showing interesting is one thing. Showing up on dates, being consistent with communication, moving things forward with the momentum to move into a relationship … that’s an entirely different thing. My LO was flaky. If I’m being honest.
“I wish so much you would meet a decent guy soon. ”
I don’t really like “decent.” 🙂
“Cannot understand why the decent ones are not queuing at your door, for a witty woman with a big heart like you!”
I don’t have a big heart. 🙂
I was telling Limerent Nurse … I’m an on a site. I just seem to get myself to respond to the guys who “like” me. Just the thought of starting up a conversation over messaging is making me tired. Let alone making b.s. conversation on a date.
The above message is for Mila.
Marcia,
„I don’t really like “decent“
I‘m not a native speaker, so maybe the wrong word😅
I meant one of the good ones! With a touch of bad boy for you? But someone who does all that which you described: „Showing up on dates, being consistent with communication, moving things forward with the momentum to move into a relationship …“
And yes, you do have a big heart, I‘m sure 😇, me, my heart seems to shrink and grow, according to life phases…
Mila,
“I meant one of the good ones! With a touch of bad boy for you?”
Do “baby boys” exist at my age? Can a man be a “bad boy” and have a mortgage and a job and 2 kids and a dog? At my age, some have grandkids! Shoot me now! 🙂
Rather, they could be “sketch.” Like MJ and be attempting to line up women even though he CLAIMs he only wants one specific woman. 🙂 How do they go about picking out one if there are so many they want? I’m being partly serious. I’ve always wondered that.
“And yes, you do have a big heart, I‘m sure 😇, me, my heart seems to shrink and grow, according to life phases…”
What size is your heart now? 🙂 Shrunken or expanded? What life phase are you in? 🙂
Marcia,
what is „sketch“? Couldn’t find a translation that made sense.
My heart is a bit shrunken at the moment, I think… my phase is called perimenopausal aging, I guess😆, or more positively said, I‘m getting wiser and getting a bit more selfish? Actually it really goes up and down a bit, bloody hormones probably, but also a change of priorities generally.
Mila,
“what is „sketch“? Couldn’t find a translation that made sense.”
Looking for and/or being open to any and all offers. 🙂
“or more positively said, I‘m getting wiser and getting a bit more selfish? ”
I keep reading that women get a “I don’t give a f*ck” attitude once they’re through menopause. I think there’s some truth to that. Is that what you are referring to when you say you are getting a bit more selfish?
Also I keep reading that post-menopausal women don’t care about the “male gaze.” I haven’t found that to be true. 🙂
Hi Marcia,
Thanks for the translation!
Yes, I meant that I seem to tolerate a bit less of a waste of my time or energy with people who are not really on my wave length etc. I feel that I might get less dependent on other people’s opinion of me. I get less FOMO. But it’s only a feeling until now, I don’t act so much on it, and I still care about how people see me etc. Let’s wait for menopause…
„Also I keep reading that post-menopausal women don’t care about the “male gaze.”
Not there yet, but I can say that I’m more confident, more sure of myself. 1.I don’t care much about random males‘ opinion. The male gaze can also be annoying. 2. I know I’m not bad-looking for sure (finally know that!) 3. my worth isn’t only in my looks. 4. I seem to get more accepting of aging. I can accept that at some time I might be the (hopefully) nice granny who looks ( hopefully) benevolently on the ongoing of young folks. Maybe it’s having kids who grow and parents who are very old now.
Someone said they cannot find many men attractive any more. Me, I suddenly see attractive men in all ages, from 18-70, but a bit remote, not for me, I just appreciate that they are attractive, but I don’t desire them.
But as I said, it seems to go up and down. Ask me tomorrow and might be different…
Hi Mila,
“1.I don’t care much about random males‘ opinion. The male gaze can also be annoying.”
Really? I wish I was still getting it. Random attention from the dudes on the street. Yes, please. 🙂
“3. my worth isn’t only in my looks.”
Well, of course, no person is only worth their looks.
” 4. I seem to get more accepting of aging. I can accept that at some time I might be the (hopefully) nice granny who looks ( hopefully) benevolently on the ongoing of young folks. Maybe it’s having kids who grow and parents who are very old now.”
That’s good. I’m so not there. I’m literally thinking of going for a consultation for a face lift. I’m not going to do it right this second, but eventually … if I have the money.
“Someone said they cannot find many men attractive any more.”
That might have been me. It’s not that I don’t find them attractive anymore. I can notice a man’s handsomeness but to feel attracted … is to feel drawn to him. That’s rare. But I’ve never been a woman who’s been attracted to a lot of men, anyway.
And it’s even rarer when I’m on the dating sites, where all you have to go on is a one-dimensional image. It’ s not like it’s easy to feel a sense of excitement and desire to meet them based on that.
” Me, I suddenly see attractive men in all ages, from 18-70, but a bit remote, not for me, I just appreciate that they are attractive, but I don’t desire them.”
Yeah, I have that. More like an aesthetic appreciation.
Hi Marcia,
„ Random attention from the dudes on the street. Yes, please.“
Yes, of course it’s flattering, I don’t mind it too;) but maybe it’s because my work friends are all so much younger than me, three of my best work mates are really pretty girls, and I kind of get used to them getting the attention of the mentioned kind. Recently I got a coffee with one of them and the barista recognized me from playgroup or whatever, and she asked me if my work mate was my daughter 😂
Actually, it’s quite healthy, I think, to be constantly in the presence of these young ladies because I cannot evade reality- I’m so much older. But actually there are still some men in my age or even younger who still seem more interested in me. They are not interesting to me, thankfully, but I just want to point out that not every male goes for young women. For my SO, my young friends are of no interest at all, they are like puppies for him, I guess. And no, he doesn’t say it, I know him well and can see it- but he has never been the cliché man, I think he has a good taste in women, if I may say so😂
„ That’s good. I’m so not there.“
Maybe that’s because you are in the hunt, bluntly spoken. I‘m not there fully, either.
Please consider a face lift very carefully. I‘ve seen so many women who look awful with it, including celebrities who certainly have access to the best doctors. There’s something about it that destroys a balance and liveliness in the face, for my eyes. But then, I’m like my SO, my aesthetics seem a bit different from other people’s.
I concur with Mila—So many of the older celebrities are starting to look like aliens to me lately. They don’t even look like their former selves. Aging naturally may not have the “bloom” of youth, but at least you can still see the features that once made them a youthful beauty. And many people do have the same reaction.
And things like Botox can take away wrinkles, but take away the usual lines that make a face “human.” I remember the mother on Atypical (Jennifer Jason Leigh) got Botox or something in her face in the second season, and she looked so weird I couldn’t stand it. Her expressions just were not “normal.”
Of course, a facelift can also be done well. I recall “Julia” from Dark Shadows had the bags under her eyes removed, and looked much more attractive. Maybe because it was just a small thing, not trying to rework the whole face.
Hi Mila,
“Yes, of course it’s flattering, I don’t mind it too;) but maybe it’s because my work friends are all so much younger than me, three of my best work mates are really pretty girls, and I kind of get used to them getting the attention of the mentioned kind.”
I would hate that. You need to get a new job. An environment where you’re the only woman. 🙂
“Recently I got a coffee with one of them and the barista recognized me from playgroup or whatever, and she asked me if my work mate was my daughter 😂”
I would have asked to speak to the manager. 🙂
Seriously, though, that would have ticked me off.
“Actually, it’s quite healthy, I think, to be constantly in the presence of these young ladies because I cannot evade reality- I’m so much older. ”
I don’t need that kind of reminder. I shower in dim light so when I catch my reflection in the bathroom mirror, I think: Damn, looking good! I play games with myself. 🙂
“But actually there are still some men in my age or even younger who still seem more interested in me. ”
I used to be on this other blog years ago. And I never forget what one of the male posters who was a bit older than me wrote: Young men pay attention to older women when young women are ignoring them. That haunts me.
“For my SO, my young friends are of no interest at all, they are like puppies for him, I guess. And no, he doesn’t say it, I know him well and can see it- but he has never been the cliché man, I think he has a good taste in women, if I may say so😂”
True dat. 🙂 And for all that his holy, you don’t want to be married to a cliche! I mean that in all seriousness.
“Maybe that’s because you are in the hunt, bluntly spoken. I‘m not there fully, either.”
Yes, always cruising. 🙂
“Please consider a face lift very carefully. ”
I’m already doing filler. But you can’t do it forever because it starts to change the shape of your face. Eventually, I’ll have to bite the bullet and get the surgery.
Mila,
Thanks very much for your thoughts and words, now and over time as we’ve both made our own sense of this limerence thing.
“I’m very glad that you managed to move on so well without the drama I made of it (accusing conversations in tropical rain nights etc)”
If there is one thing I feel is miraculous, it’s that I have shifted most of it without that kind of dramatic conversation happening. I always thought it would have to happen. The need for a functional professional relationship, plus knowledge I got from LwL, have been the biggest things that saved me opening my mouth.
Marcia,
“What if the LO hooks up with an SO who’s … I’m going to throw it out there … much better-looking or much more successful or a completely different personality type. Would that throw the limerent a little bit? Hurt their ego?”
It’s funny – I knew from the years before I felt limerent for her that she had a ‘type’ – and that I’m very very different to that type. It would be easy to feel inferior to them (that applied to her orbiter who I mentioned to Mila earlier), but better to think ‘different’ than ‘inferior’. Even though I always knew I wasn’t her type, I thought it would hurt my ego when she hooked up with one of them (yeah even despite the fact I have an SO – just being honest). But she never put it to the test in the spell I was most limerent. Now I am more confident (though not totally) that I’d handle it OK.
I’ve had this happen to me with past crushes and an LO (these all when I was single) and it was a huge ego bruise then.
Lady Snow,
Had to move our conversation here.
“I meant how many first date you or others had, which could march up to the chemistry/Glimmer collision that took place between Anna and the Father in “Damage”. Both of them felt it and both knew what would follow is “forbidden fruit”.”
Forbidden fruit implies to me an affair.
Now, in terms of a collision course … I felt that a bit with my college LO. (Both of us were single.) We met through mutual friends and he started talking to me and he was subtle– he was extremely polite — but he was hitting on me. And I remember thinking: I’m going to sleep with this guy. I knew right away.
“She knew who he was before the first meeting for sure, probably through his son. A MP’s face is public. “Weird energy” is probably Glimmer to him.”
Yes, I’m sure she knew who he was. He was a public figure. But she didn’t date the son to be able to meet the father. But when they did meet, there was a “thing” between them.
“she’s also a damsel in distress. ”
You’re right. She is a damsel in distress. And as we’ve read many times on this site … men love a damsel in distress. 🙂
“He wants to have their secret affair in “order”, but she’s aloof about any regularity. Here is the script —”
From the dialogue you posted, he wants to make it a normal relationship. He doesn’t want it to be an affair anymore. He wants things out in the open. You posted the scene I was referencing yesterday. She’s telling him they don’t have the kind of relationship that they could make “normal.” They can’t pull into down into the normalcy of day-to-day living. That’s what she has with the son. Now, that’s my interpretation. It’s a creative work. There could be many interpretations.
“Yes. When the father bumped into Peter, Anna’s lover before Martin, he jealously interrogated her. So she told Peter’s role in her brother’s suicide — causing her mistaken brother terribly jealous and then slit his own wrist.”
But Martin accepts that there are parts of her she keeps hidden. The father can’t do that. He has to know everything. He wants to possess her.
“I don’t think she played hard to get”
I’m saying she didn’t play hard to get. The opposite. They didn’t do the usual song and dance of courtship. That’s why it’s so hot. They just cut through all the b.s. 🙂
“Anna: “Do you think I would have married Martyn…if I couldn’t be with you?”
F: “I’m coming.””
I remember this scene. But … and, again, this is my interpretation … she wants to be with both the father and son. She has no intention of blowing up her life and the father’s so they can be together full-time.
It’s so weird that we’re talking about this movie. I remember reading an excerpt from the book in a women’s magazine, way back in probably 1991, the year the book was published. I remember that quote … Damaged people know how to survive. The excerpt had an impact on me.
“I disagree it’s human nature shared by all. There is non-limerent tribe, and those who do NOT live in the West.”
True, but even with the non-limerents … and I’m ALWAYS speaking of the West because I haven’t lived in the East … I have a hard time imagining they don’t get strongly attracted to someone, at some point, even if it’s maybe not limerence. If you’re married for decades … no other person strongly appeals to them ? I find that hard to believe.
“For unaware/ignorant limerents, fantasies in the head is perceived and felt as real and pleasant as actual PA.”
IMO … they aren’t the same. Thoughts versus an actual PA. Actually having a PA puts things on a whole other level.
“With LO-Lite, is it worth it in the end?”
I don’t know. I don’t have enough distance from it yet to get perspective. Of course, with all these kinds of situations … there is SOOOO much more time spent in the “pain/heartbreak” later phase than in the “joyous/alive” early phase. And then the other question is … is the limerent ruined for “normal lovers” having experienced … well, the height of … whatever limerence is.
“It rightfully intends to serve as a moral and psychological lesson, so the story has to be extremely catastrophic, though still plausible in reality.”
Yes. On some level, it’s a cautionary, morality tale.
“Is every ‘middle-aged aunty’ eyeing flowery young men?”
I meant that you only see these “glimmer-lites” every now and then. They are few and far between as one gets older.
“But “job” sounds so unaffectionate and unromantic. Sex is supposed to be an act of unified-love expression, not some obligation of a job! ”
I was joking. The idea of some guy being able to “get the job done.” 🙂
“Did you read a couple of days ago that some limerent’s lamentation about “failing” such a “performance” and thus suffer LE pains for years? His/societal view/concept has brought his own dilemma and pains.”
No, I didn’t. I was talking more about a sexual performance.
“The West is in minority, my Dear!”
It may be, but that’s where my perspective is. Call it myopic, but is it any less myopic than anyone else?
“Your ladyship: you’re discussing some serious topics with a person who is originally from COO which has 5 thousand years of civilization”
I don’t think going to an amusement park is all that serious. You said you don’t enjoy them. So don’t go. Personally, I think it’s too long of a date for the first date. You’ll be there for hours.
“It does NOT happen to partner/SO. There are 50% of populations belonging to non-limerent tribe, even just in the West.”
You’re such a limerent. You always refer back to limerence. 🙂 Feelings, strong attraction. Doesn’t have to be limerence. But I think every limerent who has a non-limerent partner seems to feel their SO isn’t ever tempted. Which doesn’t seem reasonable to me.
“Secondly, one should never rebel for the rebellions’ sake”
I disagree. Sometimes you just want to say no because you get tired of being told what to do. I’m referring mostly to a job, but … what can you do? You need the money. So you acquiesce. You have to. But over the years, part of your spirit is crushed. I was much more of a pain in the ass when I was younger. 🙂
“how many rock/pop stars died of over dose of drugs/medicines, alcohol, etc… I’m very glad to see Madonna is still alive‼️”
I wasn’t really talking about drugs or alcohol.
“Later after hanging around those wastrels of the society, look what happened to her⁉️”
It’s those very people who shun her once she leaves her husband. Even though they’re all having affairs.
“❄️: Wait for whom⁉️ ”
Probably no one will show up. There are very few men on here. 🙂
“I’m patiently waiting to see who dare to come onto the stage to tango with the ONE-and-Only Marcia. 😋”
LOL. I like the way you put that. I’m afraid it’s the other way around … I wonder if I have the … idk … emotional fortitude to tango with them! 🙂
Yeah, I remember all “society” turning against Anna even though everybody else was doing the same thing!
I just finished watching the version of Madame Bovary with Greg Wise. It’s been decades since I read the book, so I don’t know how close it was. Had to see how Wise looks at her. 🙂 It was a bit confusing, though—He used the rose water to mimic tears, implying he wasn’t actually sad to leave her, but in the final scene he’s watching after her coffin like he’s devastated.
Serial,
You didn’t think the scene where he takes her out into the woods was hot as s**t?! 🙂
It’s totally unrealistic, though. She goes back to the village, her hair and clothes perfect. There was a weird trend for a while for couples to post post-coital pictures online. (They were dressed.) But the few I saw … the woman’s hair and makeup looked perfect. Which led me to wonder: Did you two do anything? 🙂
Oh, definitely hot. But you can’t leave any traces, lol!
Marcia,
“Forbidden fruit implies to me an affair.”
Of course, it implies specifically an “illicit” affair based on social norms, unless all sides are polygamous.
“Now, in terms of a collision course … I felt that a bit with my college LO. (Both of us were single.) We met through mutual friends and he started talking to me and he was subtle– he was extremely polite — but he was hitting on me. And I remember thinking: I’m going to sleep with this guy. I knew right away.”
That sounds instinctive, pair-bonding driven… Since it’s ALWAYS my Glimmer to do first spotting and picking, my thought was usually like this: what just happened? Did something click in my head? Who is this guy? His big eyes… looking familiar…The concept of sex completely disappeared or did not exist at all during the glimmer hit!
For the following week or month, I’d lose appetite, sleep, concentration…with the stranger’s eyes filled my head. Forget about sex (never was or was allowed to be the top conscious “agenda” in COO courting culture), all I wanted was to meet and know that person, to be known by that person, and maybe hold his sweet gaze (not clear what kind). On the CONSCIOUS level, crush, infatuation, and limerence (to me) were rarely about PA , but mostly EA.
“You’re right. She is a damsel in distress. And as we’ve read many times on this site … men love a damsel in distress. “
Before bumping into LwL, I had never quite understood this piece of Westerner chivalry culture — saving a damsel in distress❗️ Myself liked/wanted to save others, my friends in distress or need of help, despite that I was ignorantly/subconsciously searching for an idealized, “surrogate parent” to “save” me….
“From the dialogue you posted, he wants to make it a normal relationship. He doesn’t want it to be an affair anymore. He wants things out in the open. You posted the scene I was referencing yesterday. “
Yes, your interrelation makes more sense. I thought “order” meant for the secrete dating regulation/normalcy.
“She’s telling him they don’t have the kind of relationship that they could make “normal.” They can’t pull into down into the normalcy of day-to-day living. That’s what she has with the son.“
Such an affair would cause chaotic in anyone’s life, in my 👀 , anxiety and far provoking. Brought up in COO, I’d worry to be caught by plain-clothes policemen and sent to its own “Room 101”.
“But Martin accepts that there are parts of her she keeps hidden. The father can’t do that. He has to know everything. He wants to possess her. “
That’s an accurate insight! The father was in limerence, while she seemed to be “rational”/calculous. Intensely drawn to him by her sexual desire for the father, she still kept her head cool. I don’t get a sense that she even wanted to know him as a person, but just a great lover.
“They didn’t do the usual song and dance of courtship. That’s why it’s so hot. They just cut through all the b.s. “
Personally, I don’t consider it as “so hot”, hot only in their animalistic instinct and its consumption/consumation. Each human being is more than just a chimp. On the side of the globe, sexual gratification is the way over rated; on the other side, under rated.
“I remember this scene. But … and, again, this is my interpretation … she wants to be with both the father and son. She has no intention of blowing up her life and the father’s so they can be together full-time.”
If it were not for the forbidden fruit, their “fire” might die soon, who knows. Because such a collision was rare and limited against all social and moral norms, his possessive love seemed to be fanned more… and she determines to get both the father and son simultaneously for her different needs/wants — psychological, emotional and physical.
“It’s so weird that we’re talking about this movie. I remember reading an excerpt from the book in a women’s magazine, way back in probably 1991, the year the book was published. I remember that quote … Damaged people know how to survive. The excerpt had an impact on me.”
I saw the excerpt again; what meaning/impact did it carry for you? did you consider yourself a “damaged” person? In the end, Anna married Peter and even had a child, but appeared nothing special in the eyes of Father, who lost everything. Who is the center of the tragedy?
“True, but even with the non-limerents … and I’m ALWAYS speaking of the West because I haven’t lived in the East … “
I understand where you’re from by the comparison (since I’ve lived here for a while), but sometimes you (collective) sounded like your views or arguments were more “correct” or more valid (in terms of human natures) than other cultural perspectives. Living in a relative “free” world, people under estimate cultural influence, or Second-Order Desires — not innate but acquired.
It’s not for the sake of arguing or disagreeing with you (like some were mistaken 🙄), I sounded pedantically “argumentative.” I simply tried to bring a bit perspectives of the East, from my limited observation and experiences. There are other lifestyles, cultural norms existing outside of the West; and both sides has its great merits and terrible shortcomings…
“I have a hard time imagining they don’t get strongly attracted to someone, at some point, even if it’s maybe not limerence. “
Perhaps you think or imagine from a limerent and a modern Western view? What about some cultures that forbidden or condemn strong romantic desire/action to begin with? So couples, especially girls, get married by arrangements of needs/convenience, of matching quasedlities on paper, and of other concerns? And without this Western Romanticism’s influence, people don’t put their pair-bonding desire as a top prior pursuit in their overall life, like your Medieval ancesters? (Of course, there were “immoral” affairs back then, but not as rampant as 60s’ here or nowadays everywhere)
“If you’re married for decades … no other person strongly appeals to them ? I find that hard to believe. “
I’m sure there are other person/people strongly appeals to them, but they don’t choose to or couldn’t act on their straying eyes — unrequited love/infatuation has existed in any era. But without uncertainty but with death of hope or severe punishment, limerence can’t develop. Do you know how many people were sent to exile or Siberia for their mental /emotional /ideological “crimes” in the old days of Soviet Union and China, and today’s North Korea?
“IMO … they aren’t the same. Thoughts versus an actual PA. Actually having a PA puts things on a whole other level. “
Possibly (to PA craved folks), but not necessary (to an EA desired limerents). You never had a lousy PA with a LO or a sky-rocketing PA with a lover/fwb? To me (through experiences), an actual PA with a LO could be far less than their imagined/anticipated PA HIGH; PA with a non-LO (without those LE anxieties, fears, hopes…) could be “Cosmo-broken” satisfying. The difference is infatuation/LE imagination/envision/anticipation “pre-exist” before a realistic PA, but not so in a casual date. That’s my new “theory”.
I forget who says that High exists in ANTICIPATION, like before a foreign trip; the actual trip did not bring the anticipated excitement/joys — happened almost every single time to me! Moreover, throughout the history, to artists, writers, and inventors, powerful “thoughts” /“imaginations” /“envisions”, were the necessity and took place before their fruitions.
Now, does art copy reality (Plato), or does reality imitate art (Oscar Wilde)? Are all novels/films based on realities? What about Sexual Art and Literature, or porns? Are they less powerful or convincing? People imitate what they read and watch… like what Steve Jobs said about inventing cell phone: I’ll tell the mass what they want.
Through your Ladyship’s unique script and my envision 👁️ , I laughed 😂 😂 😂 so hard for days and weeks, after you assigned 💦 🪣 the task of cleaning ❄️’s bathroom, sent him alone to the LwL dungeon, had him clinched on the walls so as not to drown in his own 😭, and naturally changed him to Sir 🦎 …. 😂 😂 😂 , which brought me further away from my last limerence — that’s the power of imagination‼️
[With LO-Lite, is it worth it in the end?] “I don’t know. I don’t have enough distance from it yet to get perspective. “
Understandable! Is it 6 months yet? Is he still in your professional vicinity? How is the new professional possibility going?
“Of course, with all these kinds of situations … there is SOOOO much more time spent in the “pain/heartbreak” later phase than in the “joyous/alive” early phase. “
To achieve any personal, professional aspirations, we need the Motto, “No pain, no gain”. In the LO pursuit with unconquerable barriers, let’s remember and chant — “NO gains, Only pains‼️ “No Gains, Only Pains”‼️ “NO GAINS, ONLY PAINS”‼️
“And then the other question is … is the limerent ruined for “normal lovers” having experienced … well, the height of … whatever limerence is. “
I hope NOT. Nowadays I certainly have more mental/emotional space to just notice much more what’s happening around me, to focus on my tasks and other endeavors, eg. workouts or our discussion and debate here. Without that mysterious, icky longing, I feel more mentally/emotionally capable of having a “normal” relationship, which needs to be tested out in reality, of course.
“…whatever limerence is.” 🧐 Didn’t you read the convincing essay of Dr L’s TA?
“I meant that you only see these “glimmer-lites” every now and then. They are few and far between as one gets older. “
But I seem to notice more and more “glimmer-lites” almost daily: after LEG and WHG in a roll of two days, I saw another masculine one in the subway yesterday — your pro type… Am I (286 yrs 🐦🔥 ) **cough……cough……cough** getting younger⁉️ 😳
“No, I didn’t. I was talking more about a sexual performance. “
That WAS what I meant, and what he was talking about (I think)… (4 blogs before, pennamed “F”).
“It may be, but that’s where my perspective is. Call it myopic, but is it any less myopic than anyone else?”
No matter how smart, witty, experienced we could be, we are all myopic in some aspects of life, due to our spiritual, geographical, personal limitations, that’s why we need to openly and frankly discuss and debate a variety of topics to help each other expand our horizon in cultural phenomena and perspectives.
Stereotypically speaking, since 1945 after WWII, Americans (in general by proportion) have a tendency/habit to think they know more and better than people in any/all other nations, simply because they’ve had more silver coins clicking-clanking in their pockets…
“I don’t think going to an amusement park is all that serious. You said you don’t enjoy them. So don’t go. Personally, I think it’s too long of a date for the first date. You’ll be there for hours. “
I’m not sure 🧐 how amusement park has got anything to do with a date, or with what we were discussion about. 1 or 2 (maximum) for the first date; I wished that 0.5 hour was allowed back then… 😞
“You’re such a limerent. You always refer back to limerence. “
Well, if no word of “limerent” or “limerence” in m posts, I’m afraid that Dr L or some-ghost else would 🧐❓ “What on earth is she babbling here? It’s a sanctuary for people who live with or lament for limerence, not a free spot for non-LE related, nonsensical chitchats….
By the way, how do you define a limerent nowadays? Someone still in limerence, even just a little bit, or include those who are already out of LE? Are you an Active limerent, and I dormant limerent?
“Feelings, strong attraction. Doesn’t have to be limerence. But I think every limerent who has a non-limerent partner seems to feel their SO isn’t ever tempted. Which doesn’t seem reasonable to me. “
As a limerent-tribe member, I tend to agree with you here, but I simply do not know. A lot of people everywhere reasonably wear a mask for political, social, moral safety and other reasons, who knows what’s really going behind their mask⁉️ LwL “ghosts” literally don’t have a face for a mask… so we could talk “nakedly”… 😃
“I disagree. Sometimes you just want to say no because you get tired of being told what to do. I’m referring mostly to a job, but … “what can you do? You need the money. So you acquiesce. You have to. “
I disagree with your disagreement. In the case of terrible job: is it helpful or beneficial for one who wants to shout NO but doesn’t dare or can’t say NO⁉️ If not, what could screaming “NO” inside us do to our psychology? Making it More or Less miserable, resentful/angry? What should we do/react in this helpless situation? — A Stoic inquire.
“But over the years, part of your spirit is crushed. I was much more of a pain in the ass when I was younger. “
A Stoic way: not LET uncontrollable, outside situations/events control/crush the passive you, but actively manage/change your attitude/reaction towards it. Once we tame the wild horse of our reactive thoughts and reactive behaviors, towards situations or others, our mind WILL BE free of “pains”.
[“how many rock/pop stars died of over dose of drugs/medicines, alcohol, etc… I’m very glad to see Madonna is still alive”] “I wasn’t really talking about drugs or alcohol. “
I thought we were talking about Rock-n-roll world and their rebellious spirit. Don’t’ make me wrong: I love American independent, fearless/rebellious, inventive spirit across aspects of life. However, rock-n-roll world is also associated with other types, stimulus (besides loud music/songs), e.g. drugs, alcohols, substances,, “free” sex, crazy novelties… which all seemingly help us forget/escape temporarily from our sometimes painful, dissatisfying, collectively—meaningless existence.…
“Probably no one will show up. There are very few men on here. “
Indeed! 1.5 male and 6 female regular singletons (some peek behind the curtains) ❓
“ I wonder if I have the … idk … emotional fortitude to tango with them! “
What do you mean with “emotional fortitude to tango with them” — “slapping” their face or “pulling” their tail❓😁
Have a nice weekend! 💃
Typo:
1. “Such an affair would cause chaotic in anyone’s life, in my 👀 , anxiety and fear provoking. Brought up in COO, my system would helplessly worry to be caught by plain-clothes policemen and sent to “Room 101”.”
2. “On this side of the globe, sexual gratification is the way over rated; on the other side, underrated and morally degraded.”
3. “could be “Cosmo-exploding” satisfying”
4. “1 or 2 (maximum) hours for the first date;
Marcia,
Is the man in red vest your type? (at the first and last clip)
Passion Tango — https://youtu.be/vr8HcHbzAmE?si=NbHICc2TNTCRjeGd
Look at Nicole Kidman’s eyes in the end….
Snow,
“Is the man in red vest your type? (at the first and last clip)”
Not really. Although I do like that movie.
Lady Marcia,
I’m almost 95% percent positive that WHG and LEG are a couple.
As planned, I brought a bag of my stuff to the store, before my regular 4 hour teaching 5 blocks away. LEG was there, and I didn’t see WHG. The same clerk from the either day took my stuff in when LEG was highly concentrated on appraising a piece of clothes, without ever raising his eyelashes. This time from his side back, I got the view of his rear — a boggy jeans holding long, slim legs with shirt (?) tucked inside. (he might be 5’10”~5’11”). He still looks like between 18-20 with a very shy expression.
When I went back after work (the store does not hold customer’s clothes overnight), WHG was “invisible”; LEG was idle while the other casher was busy. So I was directed to him and stood facing him the counter apart. He wears a tight “formal” T-shirt with gray-black one-inch wide stripes and one-line front ruffle (not all the way to the waist)! I had never seen a boy’s T-shirt, but girl’s, like that!
LEG took my receipt, fetched the bag from a big, tall open shelve behind him, and came around the counter to hand me the bag. Then he politely said, “We passed your stuff this time, I’m sorry.” “That’s okay, thank you.” I felt a sting of disappointment… because I didn’t even make a buck?
When I was just about to turn towards the door, WHG suddenly (out of nowhere) walked into the counter area from my left side, then casually stood right behind LEG’s shoulder, he’s about 1in taller, more narrow-framed, with a more masculine face. He gave me this indifferent look and said, “Have a nice day!” From a spilt second, I think I caught a declaration on his face — “He’s mine!” 😃
Then, I brought my bag to the other charity shop and gladly left it there.
Walking home, I was thinking: what a human drama just to feed my physical eyes, which has become clearer… 😊. I also realized how cloudy/delusional my 👁️ were the whole time while still in LE, even in its ember stage after NC for months…
Snow,
“I’m almost 95% percent positive that WHG and LEG are a couple.”
I told you! 🙂 TWO hot, stylish guys … in the same place … the Universe doesn’t provide those odds for women. It just doesn’t. It’s the way it is. 🙂
” Then he politely said, “We passed your stuff this time, I’m sorry.” “That’s okay, thank you.” I felt a sting of disappointment… because I didn’t even make a buck?”
I’m sorry. Your clothing is probably too sophisticated for the people in your area.
” From a spilt second, I think I caught a declaration on his face — “He’s mine!” 😃”
Rude! You just want to look at him! 🙂
☀️ Lady Marcia,
“I told you! 🙂 TWO hot, stylish guys … in the same place … the Universe doesn’t provide those odds for women. It just doesn’t. It’s the way it is. 🙂”
You’re so right in everything and every ways❗️ From now on, whenever you say “I tell you…”, I’ll believe and trust you whole heartedly‼️
”I’m sorry. Your clothing is probably too sophisticated for the people in your area.”
It meant not only my clothes are out of fashion, but their owner 👩🏻🦯➡️, too! 😭 — I have one mint conditioned, floor-dress worn by “that Albanian lawyer”, my ex-step-father-in-law’s first wife at one of Jackie Kennedy’s parties… I wore it twice once upon a time **cough……cough……cough**…
”Rude! You just want to look at him! 🙂”
Rude❓😳 As a 100% limerence free, 95% Stoic, 50% Buddhist, sugar free, carb-free, fat-free, 286 yrs young Auntie, I have only one hobby left on Earth: to pay my sincere respect and earnest compliments to One-and-Only pair of 😍 Glimmer-lites 😍 standing shoulder to shoulder 😵💫, and any “rare and far” Glimmers out there in the galaxy🌌 …. What’s rude with that❓🙄 Isn’t this one of our limerent or human natures”🫣 ⁉️
Don’t worry, your Ladyship 🫂 , I won’t stalk flowery LEGs by pretending interested in their stuff — linger inside the shop or buy what I 🆎 don’t need/want… Within less than 3 minutes, less than three polite courtesy in my ESL, this 🐦🔥 will be out of sight of glimmer-lite…
☀️ Lady Marcia,
“You’re so right in everything and every ways❗️ From now on, whenever you say “I tell you…”, I’ll believe and trust you whole heartedly‼️”
I’m not, really. It’s just the way you described them. I thought there was a possibility they were either together or …not interested in women.
“It meant not only my clothes are out of fashion, but their owner 👩🏻🦯➡️, too! 😭 — I have one mint conditioned, floor-dress worn by “that Albanian lawyer”, my ex-step-father-in-law’s first wife at one of Jackie Kennedy’s parties… I wore it twice once upon a time **cough……cough……cough**…”
There has to be a place for vintage stuff. A place it could be sold.
[Rude! You just want to look at him! 🙂]
“Rude❓😳”
I included a smiley face. That means I’m joking. 🙂
“What’s rude with that❓🙄 Isn’t this one of our limerent or human natures”🫣 ⁉️”
Nothing. I was saying the least the one guy could do (who looked at you as if to say, “He’s mine!”) was allow you to appreciate his boyfriend’s attractiveness! 🙂 What is left for us …er … older gals ? 🙂
The above message is for Snow.
Miss Marcia,
“Nothing. I was saying the least the one guy could do (who looked at you as if to say, “He’s mine!”) was allow you to appreciate his boyfriend’s attractiveness! “
I did not misunderstand the other parts of your previous post, but his point. I thought you were saying I was “rude”…
On the way home yesterday, I actually was thinking the same thing: I was there to appreciate the beauty of your choice, why do you get jealousy and hostile⁉️ (I thought, “what a human drama…”) Even if you put LEG in my hand, I LITERALLY would NOT know what to do with him 🙄 — put in the window display of my own shop (I’ll have to buy off the whole shop)⁉️
“🙂 What is left for us …er … older gals ? 🙂”
Don’t be discouraged 🫂 ! we could always appreciate in our own individualistic ways whatever the world provides us; the keys is: to keep a small dose of desire alive without any expectations… 1% of hope is fine. 😊
Typo: I did not misunderstand the other parts of your previous post, but THIS point.…
Miss Snow,
“I thought you were saying I was “rude”…”
No, the guy was.
“On the way home yesterday, I actually was thinking the same thing: I was there to appreciate the beauty of your choice, why do you get jealousy and hostile⁉️”
Exactly. And if he isn’t interested in woman, you won’t be able to lure him away, anyway.
“Don’t be discouraged 🫂 ! we could always appreciate in our own individualistic ways whatever the world provides us; the keys is: to keep a small dose of desire alive without any expectations… 1% of hope is fine. 😊”
ONE percent?! That’s not even enough to stay on this planet for.
Marcia,
“ONE percent?! That’s not even enough to stay on this planet for“
The higher a hope, the more disappointment (possibly crushing), but —
Keep 1~5% hope and 0% expectation alive, 95~99 % enjoyment of a journey to have a desire met — my Stoicism.
Snow,
“That sounds instinctive, pair-bonding driven… ”
I’m not sure what the difference is. Between pair-bonding and Glimmer. It was a level-10, this guy is knocking me over.
“The concept of sex completely disappeared or did not exist at all during the glimmer hit!”
The thought of sex didn’t arise as quickly with my last LO. Although the glimmer was also at-first-sight level 10.
“For the following week or month, I’d lose appetite, sleep, concentration…with the stranger’s eyes filled my head. ”
Yes. Similar. I couldn’t stop thinking about the LO.
“know that person, to be known by that person”
Do you feel your LOs really knew you? I wouldn’t say mine did.
“Before bumping into LwL, I had never quite understood this piece of Westerner chivalry culture — saving a damsel in distress❗️ ”
It makes no sense to me. I don’t want to “save” a man.
“Such an affair would cause chaotic in anyone’s life, in my 👀 , anxiety and far provoking. ”
Most definitely.
“The father was in limerence, while she seemed to be “rational”/calculous. Intensely drawn to him by her sexual desire for the father, she still kept her head cool. I don’t get a sense that she even wanted to know him as a person, but just a great lover.”
I’d have to think about that. She is really cool and rational. Are you going to risk all of that just for sex, though? I don’t think any other actress could have played that role. She’s a combination of dark, mysterious, sophisticated, individualistic, animalistic and unknowable.
“Personally, I don’t consider it as “so hot”, hot only in their animalistic instinct and its consumption/consumation.”
That first sex scene is pretty hot. The great French director Louis Malle.
“If it were not for the forbidden fruit, their “fire” might die soon, who knows. ”
I think that’s why she tells him they don’t have the kind of relationship where they can read the paper at the breakfast table. Move it down into normalcy — they exist in a very intense bubble, but you can’t live like that all the time — and it crumbles.
“I saw the excerpt again; what meaning/impact did it carry for you? ”
I thought she was an interesting character.
“did you consider yourself a “damaged” person?”
Yes
“Who is the center of the tragedy?”
He is. She goes on with her life. He removes himself from life and people and exists on his obsessive memories.
“I understand where you’re from by the comparison (since I’ve lived here for a while), but sometimes you (collective) sounded like your views or arguments were more “correct” or more valid (in terms of human natures) than other cultural perspectives. ”
No. I just sometimes can’t relate to your perspective. As I have a very different background.
“I simply tried to bring a bit perspectives of the East, from my limited observation and experiences. There are other lifestyles, cultural norms existing outside of the West; and both sides has its great merits and terrible shortcomings…”
That’s fine. I think my observations are limited, too. Just from my little corner of the world. 🙂
“And without this Western Romanticism’s influence, people don’t put their pair-bonding desire as a top prior pursuit in their overall life”
Are you talking about arranged marriages? From what I’ve read, some are successful. In the West, we cringe at the idea, but I’ve read some people are quite happy in them.
“Do you know how many people were sent to exile or Siberia for their mental /emotional /ideological “crimes” in the old days of Soviet Union and China, and today’s North Korea?”
Millions. Stalin purged masses of people.
“You never had a lousy PA with a LO or a sky-rocketing PA with a lover/fwb?”
The PAs that had the most impact were the ones with LOs. For me. When you call them PAs … we’re talking about a physical relationship, right? Not an actual illicit affair?
“To me (through experiences), an actual PA with a LO could be far less than their imagined/anticipated PA HIGH; ”
Obviously, the dream never quite lives up the reality. But usually parts of it do.
“PA with a non-LO (without those LE anxieties, fears, hopes…) could be “Cosmo-broken” satisfying.”
Well, I know you will yell at me for writing this 🙂 … but I LIKE the anxiety. Or being riled up. Let’s me know I’m still here. 🙂
“I forget who says that High exists in ANTICIPATION, like before a foreign trip”
The anticipation is exquisite. But for me, there has to be the thought that the PA will happen for there to be anticipation. That’s what you’re anticipating! 🙂
“Are all novels/films based on realities?”
Novels/films are heightened. If they were exact slices of life, we’re throw the book away or get up and leave the theater. So much of life is too … pedestrian.
“Through your Ladyship’s unique script and my envision 👁️ , I laughed 😂 😂 😂 so hard for days and weeks, after you assigned 💦 🪣 the task of cleaning ❄️’s bathroom, sent him alone to the LwL dungeon, had him clinched on the walls so as not to drown in his own 😭, and naturally changed him to Sir 🦎 …. 😂 😂 😂 , which brought me further away from my last limerence — that’s the power of imagination‼️”
That’s a nice thing to say. 🙂 I’m glad you laughed! How is your health, btw?
“Understandable! Is it 6 months yet? ”
No
“Is he still in your professional vicinity? ”
I never see him.
“How is the new professional possibility going?”
Things are ramping up. I’m pretty busy. Which is good because it occupies my mind.
” “NO gains, Only pains‼️ “No Gains, Only Pains”‼️ “NO GAINS, ONLY PAINS”‼️”
I don’t think it’s quite that simple. It’s what CatCyclist posted. He wrote that in a conversation he had with his LO, he experienced the most euphoria he had in years. I can relate to that.
“Without that mysterious, icky longing, I feel more mentally/emotionally capable of having a “normal” relationship, which needs to be tested out in reality, of course.”
Can there be limerence without longing? What if it was just a really intense love affair where the person was available and felt the same way about you?
” 🧐 Didn’t you read the convincing essay of Dr L’s TA?”
I don’t know what that is.
“But I seem to notice more and more “glimmer-lites” almost daily: after LEG and WHG in a roll of two days, I saw another masculine one in the subway yesterday — your pro type… ”
I didn’t think you liked masculine guys. 🙂
“Stereotypically speaking, since 1945 after WWII, Americans (in general by proportion) have a tendency/habit to think they know more and better than people in any/all other nations, simply because they’ve had more silver coins clicking-clanking in their pockets…”
That’s true. There’s an arrogance to American culture.
“I’m not sure 🧐 how amusement park has got anything to do with a date”
Because the act of being afraid … a little fear … can ratchet up sexual/romantic interest.
“By the way, how do you define a limerent nowadays? Someone still in limerence, even just a little bit, or include those who are already out of LE? Are you an Active limerent, and I dormant limerent?”
I’d say I’m somewhat active currently. Are you dormant? Do you think you still have the potential to become limerent for an unavailable LO if all the right factors/circumstances lined up?
“What should we do/react in this helpless situation? — A Stoic inquire.”
You don’t have a choice. Either that or you get another job. But you’ll want to scream in that one, too. It’s part of life. You have to have a job.
“A Stoic way: not LET uncontrollable, outside situations/events control/crush the passive you, but actively manage/change your attitude/reaction towards it. ”
You could say that about anything. Sometimes things just suck. And to be a little pissed off about them lets me know they (employers/society/the “man”) haven’t totally crushed me. Some of me is still in there.
“1.5 male and 6 female regular singletons (some peek behind the curtains) ❓”
1.5 ? Who’s half a man ? 🙂
“What do you mean with “emotional fortitude to tango with them” — “slapping” their face or “pulling” their tail❓😁”
I don’t have the wherewithal to enter that arena right now. Don’t have it in me.
👒 👠 Marcia,
[That sounds instinctive, pair-bonding driven… ‘ “I’m not sure what the difference is. Between pair-bonding and Glimmer. It was a level-10, this guy is knocking me over. “
Instinctive — feeling sexual (physical) with or without LO present; pair-bonding — more than sex alone (physical + psychological), as you repeatedly stressed. You were saying that you already thinking about “sleeping with LO” when you glimmered at him. I was saying such thought was almost “suppressed” totally by my Glimmer – on sympathetic system, which almost turned off parasympathetic functions.
And in the following weeks/months, the sympathetic system continued flaring up, further curbing down parasympathetic system, which reduces/supresses sexual energy’s flowing. You know how two systems work to our sexual drive, right⁉️ (AI it!)
“The thought of sex didn’t arise as quickly with my last LO. Although the glimmer was also at-first-sight level 10. “
That’s probably, I’m just guessing here, you know and understand glimmer much better than your very first and last big LO. Again, analysis can kill/reduce raw physical aruasual.
[For the following week or month, I’d lose appetite, sleep, concentration…with the stranger’s eyes filled my head. ] “Yes. Similar. I couldn’t stop thinking about the LO.”
Here our sympathetic system was all fired up, seriously inhibiting other parasympathetic function: eating, sleeping, and concentration (a collaboration of two) (AI it)
[know that person, to be known by that person] “Do you feel your LOs really knew you? I wouldn’t say mine did. “
With my monologues, my last LO probably knows me more than himself! 🙄 That psychological nakedness helped heal my cptsd. Who cares what he ever thought or would think⁉️
“It makes no sense to me. I don’t want to “save” a man. “
One could feel lasting satisfaction to truly help out someone else in need (in concert service), even more than helping myself. I would love to be able to give a hand to others to a certain point… But SAVE? Through various relationships and my own therpies, I finally, truly understand that only ONE can psychologically SAVE ONESELF. Others (professionals, able mind, caring heart) can directly or accidentally help pinpoint one’s needed directions at various time, but s/he has to WALK her/his walk without a cane 🦯 ❗️
Otherwise, those heavily needy souls may drag you down to their muddy pit/hole and then sink with you together into the psychological whirlpool or swamp. Like saving a desperate drowning person, sometimes, you need to first knock them out or senseless, before dragging them to the shore… 🚨
In the past, when knowing someone, even men, came close me to “save” me, I always felt insulted 😠. If EXPECT me to “save” them, then how could they get their desired admiration or adoration❓ Your worshiped initial glimmer would wear off soon or later, no? My “blind” glimmer grows/withers with reasons, pretty much dead in the dark phrase of LE.
“I’d have to think about that. She is really cool and rational. Are you going to risk all of that just for sex, though? I don’t think any other actress could have played that role. She’s a combination of dark, mysterious, sophisticated, individualistic, animalistic and unknowable. “
Anna in the movie seemed to believe that she pull it all off, even psychologically — splitting her mind and heart constantly between the son and father, besides scheming all the required cautious logistics. She’s doing what a traditional wanton man would do — keeping/making a “happy” family life, while hiding a mistress on the back alley and even having a side kid, just like French ex president Mitterrand.
Yes, I agree that only Binoche could pull off that character. She has managed not to let audience (at least me) to hate her or feel contempted. Her twisted humanity somehow makes one to sympathize her (her family trauma and that flamboyant mother 😓 ), but relate or empathize with her behavior or psychology⁉️ I get goose bumps to think about that — how is she ever going to relax under bright sunlight❓
In real life, either as a man or woman, I’d feel haunted or very uncomfortable to befriend with such a character — there is no kindness, warmth, humor, easiness, except this intense energy and animalistic determination, exude from her…. except that gigantic photo in the end with her charming, “joyful” smile (holding arms of both the son and father) — that serves his Limerence proof and will last in his memory and conscience….
“That first sex scene is pretty hot. The great French director Louis Malle.”
There is no script/words in that scene! Purely animalistic! Only Louis Malle dared it. My Japanese gf could not stop raving about his work.
[“If it were not for the forbidden fruit, their “fire” might die soon, who knows. ”]
“I think that’s why she tells him they don’t have the kind of relationship where they can read the paper at the breakfast table. Move it down into normalcy — they exist in a very intense bubble, but you can’t live like that all the time — and it crumbles.”
The movie does deliver a moral and psychological message, for the limerents tribe, despite that most of them haven’t pulled off an actual illicit affair . Realistic or imagined, an affair is a euphoric bubble…. Soon or later, it WILL pop or crumble❗️
[did you consider yourself a “damaged” person?”] “Yes.”
I was, too, except I didn’t realize the degree of the damage… I reopened the deeply unhealed scar during my LE, healed it, and removed its root — the Longing. So I can’t condemn my LE that much; there are two sides on every coin of life.
“No. I just sometimes can’t relate to your perspective. As I have a very different background…. I think my observations are limited, too. Just from my little corner of the world. ”
I see that clearly (with an lived comparison) and haven tried to verbosely explain why I had my “odd” perspectives. You (collective) do not need to relate to mine, but try not to disbelieve/dismiss them (no one can invalid anything that s/he doesn’t even know by experience), or insist yours are “right” ones or more human “natured” — the most was cultured/molded.
“Are you talking about arranged marriages? From what I’ve read, some are successful. In the West, we cringe at the idea, but I’ve read some people are quite happy in them. “
No. Nowadays, arranged marriage is rare in modern cities in the East. I’m talking about people (a majority in the East and far East), who do not put that delusional, short-lived, romantic pursuit as their priority in life, or even risk/ruin their stable family life for it. From a psychological point of views, if desire or expectation is moderate, plausible, and practical, then reaching a state of contentment/happiness is quite possible.
“The PAs that had the most impact were the ones with LOs. For me. When you call them PAs … we’re talking about a physical relationship, right? Not an actual illicit affair?”
Yes. It’s sex I was referring to, with or without LO/BP (beloved person/pirate).
[To me (through experiences), an actual PA with a LO could be far less than their imagined/anticipated PA HIGH; ] “Obviously, the dream never quite lives up the reality. But usually parts of it do. “
You misunderstand me. Actually it’s the other way around – the reality rarely beats imagination, with the same person/LO… Just like taking a foreign trip, excitement of the trip rarely lives up its anticipation beforehand.
“Well, I know you will yell at me for writing this 🙂 … but I LIKE the anxiety. Or being riled up. Let’s me know I’m still here. 🙂”
That’s because you don’t know yet what’s on the other side of the wall — anxiety free, which could make you feel even more alive, aware, appreciative….
“The anticipation is exquisite. But for me, there has to be the thought that the PA will happen for there to be anticipation. That’s what you’re anticipating! 🙂
Of course! That was what I was referring to in my previous message. All my “LOs” prior to the last one was legitimately available, I didn’t have to imagine or anticipate a PA for too long — from Glimmer to PA, it was from 1 day up to 2 months.
“Novels/films are heightened. If they were exact slices of life, we’re throw the book away or get up and leave the theater. So much of life is too … pedestrian. “
That was what I was talking about — the power of imagination! A lot of authors imagine first and then crate their arts, then the mass imitates/follows them! I’m on Oscar Wilde’s camp, and can’t be pulled away no matter what you (collective) say❗️ With my naked eyes, I’ve witnessed how uncouth people could be without decent education/readings; they’re just a bit more than chimps… 😓
[— that’s the power of imagination] “That’s a nice thing to say. “
I really think that on’e imagination combined with humor — ability to laugh at one’s own folly/woes First, can ease/heal many mental ailments. “Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.” It’s a talent 👏 for anyone (you ladyship) who is suffering but can still make others laugh through your and their own imagination❗️
“I’m glad you laughed! How is your health, btw?”
Without longing hanging in my system, I could laugh so much nowadays (with my own jokes in the head) and often just want to tease some teaseable 👻 👻…. My health is better than before the surgery. I spend at least 1-1.5 hours daily to do stretches and strengthening… Japanese style of walking (3 min intermittent)… and go to the same PT facility for the injuries of the left arm and right hip caused by that nasty Florentine fall in April (the surgery delayed the necessary PTs). Everything is healing well and fast…
LIfe depends on and thrives on bodily movement first, then the mind follows. There are still unknowns and questions in my life, but I let my Stoic 👁️ watch and analyze them… I still dream a lot (very active and detailed), but rarely ex LO/LE related. Upon waking up, I seldom feel flutter in my chest, just flat stillness — zero anxiety of any kind! I wish so much you can feel how life quality could be improved without that yeky LONGING but filled more with Philia, Ludus, Philautia, Agape….
[“Understandable! Is it 6 months yet? ”] “No”
[Is he still in your professional vicinity?] “I never see him. “
I see, it’s still possible to bump into him… and you still wish to hear from him after being treated by him as an “entertainment”! 😞. I hope you move to your “new” profession soon…. But you might bump into another LO-lite, if you want to keep your anxiety/longing…
“Things are ramping up. I’m pretty busy. Which is good because it occupies my mind. “
That’s the best kind of occupation and busi-ness.
[“NO gains, Only pains‼️ “No Gains, Only Pains”‼️ “NO GAINS, ONLY PAINS” ‼️]
“I don’t think it’s quite that simple. It’s what CatCyclist posted. He wrote that in a conversation he had with his LO, he experienced the most euphoria he had in years. I can relate to that. “
Just like you said repeatedly, such an euphoria is a giant bubble, nothing substantial in it, especially for partnered limerents‼️ Soon or later, it will pop when it “floats higher in the sky”…! It is like getting HIGH from cocaine but limerence is the way more stronger or addictive (coming from our pair-bonding drive), plus a possible Narc LO. Regardless a specific circumstance, every limerent was/is living in such a babble, despite all their delusional excuses… 🙃
“Can there be limerence without longing? What if it was just a really intense love affair where the person was available and felt the same way about you? ” 🧐
For me, there would NOT be limerence (the dark, later part) without longing! Without such a longing, one is able to excitedly and steadily love (4 or 4 kinds of Greek loves) another flawed BP. Why and how❓— without anxiety and longing, your mind/heart is much freer and brave to create and invent, together with your BP, interesting and adventurous romantic life, only the galaxy is your limit❗️
[Didn’t you read the convincing essay of Dr L’s TA?”] “I don’t know what that is.”
My gracious! You did not hear the galaxy’s hiccup, **cough, cough**… 😳 What kind of Guardian you were… 🤔 ⁉️
“I didn’t think you liked masculine guys. “
If you have seen this flowery couple in the shop, everyone in the street would be your masculine type, including “yours truly”….
“That’s true. There’s an arrogance to American culture. “
The less educated, the more arrogance❗️ The middle-class wears it on their face, especially while abroad; the upper-middle shows from their eye corners behind sunglasses… and the educational level here, in fact…. 😉❓
[I’m not sure how amusement park has got anything to do with a date] “Because the act of being afraid … a little fear … can ratchet up sexual/romantic interest. “
Not for me. I was in “flight & fight” mode after being rocked by roller-coaster rides or a boat-sized swing! Forget all my parasympathetic functions, I wanted to vomit…
“I’d say I’m somewhat active currently. Are you dormant? Do you think you still have the potential to become limerent for an unavailable LO if all the right factors/circumstances lined up? ”
Nope ‼️ 🆎 NOT❗️ Now after LwL, I KNOW that I would NOT become limerent again for an unavoidable LO. It’s STUPID to knowingly take such a “drug”! I can manage to kill a potential limerence at its infancy after glimmer. How many Glimmers have I already killed since being LwL❓
“You don’t have a choice. Either that or you get another job. But you’ll want to scream in that one, too. It’s part of life. You have to have a job. “
Screaming is NOT an authentic rebellion, just an expression of one’s frustration and unhappiness, which is totally fine❗️ BECAUSE you don’t have a choice (in job), then you NEED more Stoic to adjust your mindset — do what you have to do with LESS/NO misery❗️
Think of Epictetus, did he sound miserable while he’s a slave, getting daily beaten up by his owner who just wanted to crush his peaceful carefree spirit. Moreover, in all that suffering, he mentally funded Stoicism, he knew it could work!
[A Stoic way: not LET uncontrollable, outside situations/events control/crush the passive you, but actively manage/change your attitude/reaction towards it. ”]
“You could say that about anything. “
Precisely, it applies everything in life❗️
“Sometimes things just suck. And to be a little pissed off about them lets me know they (employers/society/the “man”) haven’t totally crushed me. Some of me is still in there. “
I disagree with you here: as soon as you’re pissed off, they win — already “crushed” your spirit! A winner is those who can truly keep peaceful mind while facing their adversities and still feeling/behaving alive.
Ask yourself: while being often/constantly annoyed, angry, whinny, or helplessly miserable, who is suffering❓who is the victim❓— YOU or other uncontrollable situations/people❓ You can scream your lung out, but does the Universe really care or change job for you❓
[1.5 male and 6 female regular singletons (some peek behind the curtains) ] “1.5 ? Who’s half a man ? 🙂
A word slipped into my mind, “androgynes” or “hermaphrodites”… 😊
[“What do you mean with “emotional fortitude to tango with them” — “slapping” their face or “pulling” their tail”]
“I don’t have the wherewithal to enter that arena right now. Don’t have it in me.”
“Wherewithal”? You mean mental/emotional or financial one❓
I’m so ready for a “Brave New World”… 💃
👒 Marcia,
An idea/question just popped into my head: (based on what I just said to you): since no two people are like, or even vastly different, their inner mental/emotional journeys were/are always differently, so can one really validate anyone else’s inner self❓
If one cannot invalidate another’s thoughts, emotions, knowledge, experiences, personal preferences, etc. can one validate another for whatever the latter seeks, knowingly or semi-consciously?
Yet, limerents almost all (in)directly seek LO’s validation. is it even possible to get authentic validation from LO or anyone else? Was my old assumption perhaps correct — that ONE can ONLY authentically validate ONESELF❓
If one can validate oneself confidently, can s/he be then free of limerence❓
I know you’d say that one can’t get that pair-bonding desire from oneself, that YOU need LO to drive your passion out of you—lit up your inner fire… I wonder if one could ever “want” oneself, so s/he does not need to seek external validation….
Did your ladyship ever want to befriend yourself? When LO/LO-lite was totally out of sight, were you happy/content with your single life❓or you always felt something missing, thus longing for…❓❓
Snow,
“I know you’d say that one can’t get that pair-bonding desire from oneself, that YOU need LO to drive your passion out of you—lit up your inner fire…”
I suppose any number of things can light you up. Doesn’t have to be an LO.
“I wonder if one could ever “want” oneself, so s/he does not need to seek external validation….”
It’s a fine line. I think most people need some kind of validation — no, I’m not arguing the words “want” versus “need” 🙂 — to see themselves, for example, as desirable. If you have little to no proof from external validation, it’s difficult to prove it to yourself otherwise. It’s like being a highly skilled professional. You may have the training and know you are smart and capable, but if you go on interview after interview and you’re not getting hired… you’d naturally get demoralized. But of course there can be too much reliance on external validation.
And when it comes to romantic/sexual relationships … I think they open up a lot of vulnerabilities in people. You (universal “you”) are confronting parts of yourself that other relationships (family, friendship) don’t.
Did your ladyship ever want to befriend yourself? When LO/LO-lite was totally out of sight, were you happy/content with your single life❓or you always felt something missing, thus longing for…❓❓
Marcia,
“I suppose any number of things can light you up. Doesn’t have to be an LO.”
From LwL, I get a sense that nobody/nothing else could lit limerent up like an LO, who seems to suddenly become a personal “god” to the limerent.
In the East, many don’t think or treat LO/LE as the most important person/matter, but contentment in other fields, eg. healthy, wealth, stable family, or simply survival. If necessary, they’ll “sacrifice/trade” LO for something/someone else; thus a romantic pursuit/union is not the top priority, whether they’re limerents or not.
“It’s a fine line. I think most people need some kind of validation — no, I’m not arguing the words “want” versus “need” 🙂 — to see themselves, for example, as desirable. “
Again, to be passively “desirable” is not the most important to many people, ME included, as to be useful/satisfactory to oneself and society. For jobs or other survival means, maybe the word “desirable/needed” can be used, but for other human beings❓
In my youth I often worried about whether I’d desire others (aside from the childhood craving for Parent’s attention), I ducked my head/eyes into books, spending a lot of alone time. Why did/do I need/want to be desired, in order to see myself❓ Can others just be a mirror for one see themselves? Then, some human interactions would help, why DESIRE❓
As some have discussed here (also one of Jungian theories): what limerents seek from an LO is often what they miss(ed) in their life without knowing what it is/was. They believe LO could give them, but LO cannot, even if LO reciprocates or marry the limerents.
“If you have little to no proof from external validation, it’s difficult to prove it to yourself otherwise. “
For career/job to survive, yes; but the validation involved usually would not drive one into euphoria, or some kind of limbo, or an addiction — one has a certainty (yes or no) with a job or other specific matters. But for romance and pair-bonding stuff, the need for LO’s validation seems to reach the sky edge 🙄, unbelievable‼️
“It’s like being a highly skilled professional. You may have the training and know you are smart and capable, but if you go on interview after interview and you’re not getting hired… you’d naturally get demoralized. “
Getting demoralized in this case is understandable, but the most won’t fall in LE or even desperation with a career. One can accepts: Okay, I’m not good enough for this field, then let’s change to another field or take a lower-paid job, which has happened to millions — more than a half of population is unhappy with their jobs/professions.
“But of course there can be too much reliance on external validation.”
let’s make a hypothetical scenario here: if one has basic/independent means to live a decent life or one has a secured/interesting job to support him/her self, does he/she need more external validations?
“And when it comes to romantic/sexual relationships … I think they open up a lot of vulnerabilities in people. You (universal “you”) are confronting parts of yourself that other relationships (family, friendship) don’t.”
Very true. Then it would be the best opportunity to discover, face, resolve or make peace with those vulnerabilities. But the most people (in both sides of the words) don’t reflect within, but seek without what they can’t get from external validation.
That’s just my limited view….
Typo: “For jobs or other survival means, maybe the word “desirable/needed” can be used, but for other human beings’ validation❓
Snow,
“From LwL, I get a sense that nobody/nothing else could lit limerent up like an LO, who seems to suddenly become a personal “god” to the limerent.”
Yes, but limerence is a special circumstance. You’re reading the posts of people who are going through something and limerence is a symptom.
“Again, to be passively “desirable” is not the most important to many people, ME included, as to be useful/satisfactory to oneself and society. ”
Where did I write MOST important?
“For jobs or other survival means, maybe the word “desirable/needed” can be used, but for other human beings❓”
I can’t go back and forth with you over this again. 🙂 It seems self-evident … most people have a need for love and belonging. I use the word “love” generally, but if it’s romantic love, yes, they want to be desired as part of it. And the pair-bonding drive is very powerful.
“Why did/do I need/want to be desired, in order to see myself❓”
No offense, but it’s easy to say that if you’re a woman who’s gotten a good amount of attention. And you’ve written you have. If you got little or no attention, you might feel differently.
“As some have discussed here (also one of Jungian theories): what limerents seek from an LO is often what they miss(ed) in their life without knowing what it is/was. They believe LO could give them, but LO cannot, even if LO reciprocates or marry the limerents.”
Yes. I was just listening to an old Stevie Wonder song called “Love Light in Flight.”
Make me feel like paradise
Give me what I’m missing
Send me to the highest heights
Take me up and away
I loved the song when I was young. I s
“For career/job to survive, yes; but the validation involved usually would not drive one into euphoria, or some kind of limbo, or an addiction — ”
That’s true.
“One can accepts: Okay, I’m not good enough for this field”
Depends on how much one’s identity is tied to the career they wanted.
“let’s make a hypothetical scenario here: if one has basic/independent means to live a decent life or one has a secured/interesting job to support him/her self, does he/she need more external validations?”
Yes. I mean … no one can make you happy. No one can give you purpose. I truly believe that. But we are social creatures. We need other people.
Lady Marcia,
“Yes, but limerence is a special circumstance. You’re reading the posts of people who are going through something and limerence is a symptom.”
A half of population never falls/hardly into limerence, so what/why did/do limerents at certain given time or under particular situations? Shouldn’t every limerent seriously ponder about its root(s) in their own individual circumstance? And then possibly remove roots? (Unless they want to experience the pain repeatedly).
I’m seriously doubt that I’d ever fall in another limerence again, even if I want to. Before the last LE, I always had that longing, so could not imagine what it would be like to be longing-free. Now after LE and longing are gone at the same time (through an envision, not even a realistic fact), I finally KNOW what it means to be CAREFREE, no NEED for any validation (excluding the career or other survival skills).
After discussing with you, I realize that NO one can TOTALLY (perhaps partially – when two fought together in the the ditch of WWI), authentically validate or invalidate you (universal); even among two identical twins. Sympathy (emotional) and empathy (imaginatively, intellectually) have their limits. Do we really KNOW and can validate Malcolm X’s thought and feelings in his prison cell for hours, days, and years? Can we really relate to Dostoyevsky’s exile in Siberia (his bio movie is quite good) or his mind and sensation when an executioner was already pointing a gun at his head?
“Where did I write MOST important?”
That’s a sense I get; I’m sorry if I was wrong, but that’s what I’ve strongly sensed from our never-ending “novel” — “In Search of the Lost Mind and Time in Limerence”, too long to pin down where exactly. And I’m sure that other posters feel different, slightly or vastly, from their own perspectives. That’s the way it is no matter what is being said or discussed or by whom!
You see, we all have experienced or are still going through LE , you and I are supposed to be in the same MBTI box (I don’t Really go about it like a personality Bible, too simplified), we both had childhood traumas, but we still can’t TOTALLY (but particularly) “validate” our shared limerence experiences, due to some key differences — the cultural, familial and personal background. Symptoms are the same, but the roots differ.
“I can’t go back and forth with you over this again. 🙂 It seems self-evident … most people have a need for love and belonging. “
Majority does not mean authenticity, particular in highly individualistic, affectionate bonding. I can’t see it’s self-evident, because I don’t know the definition of “love” in your statement. The majority of the definition on love has been confusing — To Love or To Be Loved❓Eros alone or more types combined ❓(Have you read the Eric Fromm’s “Art of Loving”). The love many people believe(d) and stress(ed) is: TO BE LOVED romantically, not including TO LOVE?
Have you ever felt or witnessed a gratification TO LOVE (not that blind Eros alone, but a few kinds combined)? Since you dismissed unrequited love (not Eros alone), I assume you haven’t experienced this kind, am I wrong?
Also, many people (especially in the East) get a sense of belonging without that selfish and foolish Eros 💘 but a combination of Philia, Agape, Pragma, and Philautia…
“I use the word “love” generally, but if it’s romantic love, yes, they want to be desired as part of it. And the pair-bonding drive is very powerful.”
If talking about only romantic ❤️ alone, Yes, one is BLINDLY driven (not always conscious desire) to be desired to be pair-bonded. I never double its instinctual power❗️ But such a desire does NOT and CANNOT give authentic validations one seeks. That animalistic drive just CANNOT validate or invalidate who people are or what is missing especially in limerence’s.
Many writers (artists), have validated themselves by writing down what they have seen, felt and thought, not by their LO! Dostoyevsky could barely stand his LO after a long time of courtship and married her. Berlioz’s marriage with Harriet lasted three years. Proust unrequited, deeply in love only with the man who was his maid’s husband and who died in a car accident (or war?)…. But their lasting works…. So, did or could their LO validate their worth⁉️
“No offense, but it’s easy to say that if you’re a woman who’s gotten a good amount of attention. And you’ve written you have. If you got little or no attention, you might feel differently.”
Nothing you or anyone else say could offend me nowadays, trust me — the ultimate beauty of longing-free‼️ Love me, hate me, think or feel whatever of me is YOUR business, not MINE. But hear me this: to like you (really your mind) and/or dislike you (collective) is independent from your attitudes towards me and from your external appearance, I can’t see anyway — it does NOT and cannot matter‼️
“The grass on the other side of fence is already greener” — a truth in every aspect of human life, including that accidental appearance (does not guarantee attractive). People ONLY envy and desire what they LACK ‼️ Once they get it, they’re bored with it, or not knowing what to do with it (your reciprocated LE and my marriage). Schopenhauer’s theory has lasted for reasons! Did Merrilyn Monroe and Princess Diana get their desired happiness⁉️ What other tangible, material stuff did they need or lack❓
Why can’t you see Jack Nicholson’s point — https://youtube.com/shorts/PrMLNWzMdkg?si=vxZMZwMEBOZodxpN Can you give me one example that a person gets his/her lasting happiness only DUE to his/her superficial beauty❓(Grace Kelly? I don’t her story well) Using superficial beauty as a “bait” to attract/lure/manipulate others’ affections/love, one OFTEN (not always) draws shallow attention or “wolves” closer, in any culture — it’s so unwise❗️
Many of us (un)knowingly want/desire others’ (not just LO’s) deep adoration or authentic admiration for what we ARE inside and outside, not just outside which can’t replace inside‼️ However, the tragedy is, in every culture, once one has had the outside given by parents, many do NOT cultivate inside that takes time and effort. Knowledge and wisdom of any kind NEVER comes from that adorable Cupid/Glimmer with just one sling shot❗️
In this culture, superficial beauty and that glimmer is the way, way overrated mindlessly/madly or misused/abused intentionally. In some other cultures, personality, achievements, and a combination of loves, e.g platonic friendship, are sorted out and trained more (I’m not saying there is no mistreatment of physical beauty, just by proportion for ordinary people). BECAUSE they fulfill one’s whole being more and they LAST.
“Yes. I was just listening to an old Stevie Wonder song called “Love Light in Flight.”
Make me feel like paradise
Give me what I’m missing
Send me to the highest heights
Take me up and away”
😃 it’s just Limerence High (A substance High) — a result of exaggerated Romanticism. I imagine one feels the same way when taking cocaine or heroin or mushroom 🍄 (never tried any, I don’t know for sure at all!).
There is no paradise on this sphere;
no one can give you what you’re missing
reaching the highest highests
you fly like Icarus towards the Sun
when you get to the glorifying “there”
It becomes insufferable “here”
🐦🔥
“I loved the song when I was young. “
Well, there are millions of romantic songs in this culture; some beautiful, imaginative, inspirational; some deeply disturbing, irrational, or ridiculous to a logical mind to its next life❗️
“Depends on how much one’s identity is tied to the career they wanted.”
Whoever ties his/her identity entirely to their career is the “poorest” person on the earth, according to Sartre!
“Yes. I mean … no one can make you happy. No one can give you purpose. I truly believe that. “
You’re absolutely right‼️ 🫂 We should be our own master in mind, soul, and behaviors/actions‼️ By biology, our body is not under our total control — it gets sick and age.
“But we are social creatures. We need other people.”
Yes❗️ We NEED other people to MIRROS us, from one or many angles. To mirror is NOT to validate or invalidate, my dear lady. Again No one else was, is, or will ever be YOU. I’m convinced — No one can authentically (in)validate YOU for YOU, they can “superficially” attack (not authentic, only an individual, limited angle) YOU or sincerely empathize (also limited) YOU.
Just by thoughts and thinking, people/limerewnts are all different from each other, thus our desires/wants (in second-order) and our reactions towards those desires/wants differ. To desire something you can control — to train/tame that wild horse inside your mind, you become your own master; to desire others’ desire for you (NOT refuse it when it’s given authentically), you enslave yourself for that ever evasive “there”, instead of appreciating and enjoying steady“here”…
I think, therefore I AM…❗️
(Sorry for my repeated verbosity on my singular points of views…)
There is no paradise in love site
no one can give you what you’re missing
or solely missed
Reaching the highest heights
you fly like wingless Icarus towards might
when you get to a glorified “there”
it becomes a crushed “here”
🐦🔥
There is no paradise in love site
no one can give you what you’re missing
or solely missed
Reaching the highest heights
you fly like wingless Icarus towards
an illusive, delusional might
when you get to a glorified “there”
it becomes a crushed “here”….
🐦🔥
I have an update on LO. He just lost his house on the opposite side of the country, as well as his sizable deposit. He is furious, not just because he lost the house, but because his brother, who was supposed to lend him the money, dropped the ball and everything went wrong.
I certainly empathize with his feelings, but I am concerned about this new turn of events. I thought he was going to be moving soon, and now he has nowhere to move TO. I am relieved for the sake of his elderly mother; I thought it was nuts that he was going to drag such an elderly person clear across the country into a freezing climate.
This complicates things for me.
Complication—or challenge? It reminds me of breakups where I still had to see the guy around all the time because we were on the same campus. It hurts for a while, but eventually gets better. In your case it doesn’t sound like active hostility, so that may help….I think I’ve seen posts by Dr L about dealing with LO’s you can’t cut out of your life for whatever reason….
Here’s one—It’s about co-workers, but it’s the same concept, somebody you can’t cut out of your life:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-for-a-co-worker/
To Serial Limerent:
I should have added to my earlier post that no, there is no active hostility.
And I also posted in the wrong place.
Norma,
Please, please, take care of yourself first.
My not so professional advice: do not use up so much of your own capacity for empathy on a man who, as far as I can glean, does not show enough empathy for you.
I apologize if that sounds harsh, but I’ve been through similar episodes, to no good end. He is responsible for his own choices. As you are for yours.
To CatCyclist:
You are right, it does not sound harsh at all. Thank you for the reminder.
I agree with CatCyclist here ND. This guy is wishy-washy when it comes to you.
I think you are ok if you give him a modicum of friendship here but don’t go overboard. He doesn’t seem to appreciate you enough.
To MJ:
He absolutely does not appreciate me enough. You have no idea how nice I’ve been to him.
Thank you for your kind words.
To Serial Limerent:
Thank you for posting that article. It doesn’t really apply to me too much. I don’t have the same kinds of difficulties I would have with a co-worker.
I just thought that, if LO would move to the other side of the country, I would be well rid of him. I was counting on LO to do the heavy lifting, so to speak.
In a way I am pleased that his house purchase fell through, not because I want him to stay, but because he was so arrogant and claimed he “deserved” for this to work out. I personally thought it was one of the kookiest things I had ever seen–trying to buy a house 3000 miles away, while attempting to sell a large white elephant house that will take at least a year to move. Not to mention LO’s advancing age and that of his elderly mother–moving from a mild climate to a freezing one? Usually people do the opposite when they get older.
Even though it’s none of my business, I feel very protective of his mother and was appalled at what he’s putting her through. Serves him right.
Norma,
I feel the link that Serial has drawn is more useful than you might first thought.
From your posts lately, you have been hinting at being on the road to recovery even without him moving away.
If you can see this LE off while he is still under your nose (which you can – by continuing on the track you were already on), it should feel more powerful than relying on a faux reason of him moving away.
Serial’s post talks of coworker LOs, but those (like me) in that position have in common with you that we can’t use NC to end it, so we have to find another way. You can do it.
To LaR:
You may be right. I still don’t see a lot of things in common with the workplace situation.
I shudder to think what it would be like to be in an office all day with LO.
One thing reading that article has done for me is to make me grateful that it’s not more awkward than it already is.
There are probably more on people you can’t go NC with—That was just to get you started. 🙂
To Serial Limerent:
Thank you so much. I really appreciate your concern and kindness.
SL, ND,
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-beating-limerence-when-no-contact-is-impossible/
To Mila:
Wonderful! Thank you. And thank you again to Serial Limerent for thinking of me.
You’re welcome!
Thanks, Mila—I knew there was something somewhere, but didn’t have the time to look for it. 🙂
The Field Behind the Dying Father’s House
Linda Nemec Foster
I’m the thin yellow
that escapes the dry grass,
the left-over dream
haunting the afternoon.
I’m the stillness of goldenrod
in the ordinary day
before the storm cloud breaks
and the wide trees embrace
their shadows. I possess no gift
of perspective that will deceive your eye.
I am simple and flat, a reflection
of sun forgotten on the ground.
Hovering between the earth and sky,
I belong to neither: no green
can swallow me, no blue
can overwhelm my singular purpose.
I hold this fragile landscape together
until night falls and turns everything—
the luminous barn, the brooding
house—into a quiet symphony of black.
I know its slow melody by heart
Waiting for the Annunciation
Linda Nemec Foster
(after the painting “Waiting” by Nancy Wanka)
Art does not imitate life.
Art anticipates life.
—Jeanette Winterson
No sacrilege here, only art. And not
the kitschy art of the Madonna of the Suburbs,
nestled in a bathtub grotto near the garage—
the limp shirts on the line, her only devotees—
but real art: a young girl in an empty room.
I could see the screaming headline now,
Free-Spirit Agnostic Chosen to be God’s Mother,
and the ensuing media frenzy. The reporters
just concentrate on her face and don’t notice
the immense yellow space at her right. Too
brilliant; as if the sun had forgotten its place
in the sky and wanted to sit down beside her.
What is she thinking with her doubting eyes
averted? The sideways glance too busy sizing-up
the colors of citron and corona, sunflower and pollen
to really notice the face of God just outside
her sphere of reference: the pale gray hood,
the deep blue jacket. These colors of the sky
groom her to be another version of a modern
madonna waiting for someone to call her name. But
no angel wings announce Mystery Happening Right Now.
And as for any boyfriend waiting on the sidelines …
Forget it. Whether his name is Joe or Mike or
Kevin, she’ll break a heart and total the car.
Smashed fender the least of his worries. But
back to her waiting to say yes or no. At the moment,
she’s alone. Apart from everyone. Even thoughts
of mother/father, daughter/son. Any second now,
the whole world will stop holding its breath.
First, sorry… My emoji library must not be as extensive as yours. I assume you know the poem, “Queen Herod” by Carol Ann Duffy. First time I read it, I was like wow! If my assumption is right, it’s still a hidden treasure to re-read a great poem you haven’t thought about in a while. If my assumption is wrong, I think you’ll really like it.
Hello Hamlet❗️
First, I can assure you (Dr L can attest) that in my abundant emoji library hides no name of Ophelia or psychological /Jungian Ophelia either in LwL or in reality. 😊
Second, sorry to say that your assumption was incorrect: I had never heard of the Poem “Queen Herod” before you princely introduced it to me. Some old-time “ghosts” here know that I never managed to pass the 10th page of Bible, despite of my attempts. 😞
Third, I wonder 🤔 why you think I’d “really like “the poem❓(I do like its narrative style)
The young girl in “Waiting for the Annunciation” casts her own doubts and chooses her own fate while quietly meditating next to the willing, “immense yellow” sunlight. She does not imitates but anticipates the whole world.
By contrast, Herod Queen, whose eyes are sharp like “daggers”, makes the decision for her baby girl still in crib — killing all baby boys, so this one 4b Boyfriend’s Star in the East – blatant, brazen, buoyant, and blue, would never have a chance to “make her shed one tear.”
What if the girl’s one future tear smiles? and how Herod kingdom will immortalize without a heir? or the “Queens, mothers, mothers of Queens” expect all their girls to be a “Virgin Mary” in their coming age❓
Is this “thunder and drum” a part of “The World Wife’s lullabies” in our time⁉️
“Snow Queen” (crowned by a LwL ghost) likes young dashing men, flowery LEG like, so much that she intends to bring her whole wardrobe to them, piece by piece… 🤭
Hi ❄️, I see the poems as variants of each other. Since you liked the one I assumed you’d like the other. That’s my math/logic brain. On the face, they both are reimaginings of ancient biblical scenes recast in a more grimy modern real world. I love poems that create this contrast to challenge how we see or want to see things versus how they really are. Going from the Bible world of virginal births to a real world where baby daughters grow up to become sexual beings. In this poem, Queen Herod looks at her baby daughter and anticipates all the strifes, struggles and hardships that will come to her daughter (not including limerence 😄) in the future from a man (really men). A man who will use her and treat her badly. This man is metaphorically Jesus or it is anticipated will be Jesus. In example after example, charismatic leaders in our world attract sex, unlike the virginal asexual Jesus of the Bible. The poet works with this contrast. In response Queen Herod (not King Herod as we are told in the Bible) is the one who orders the killing of all the male babies. And to protect her daughter as a women from men (and the male world), not to protect his dynasty as the Bible tells. Anyway …
Hiya Hamlet of Ophelia,
Forms and words of poems are important, but their content is even more…
“Queen Herod looks at her baby daughter and anticipates all the strifes, struggles and hardships that will come to her daughter (not including limerence 😄) in the future from a man (really men). A man who will use her and treat her badly. “
Based on discussion on this “ghost land”, without limerence, or female limerents, more than a half of the human world would not have existed. Will a man or all men “use her and treat her badly”❓ How about all mothers train (by brainwash) their daughters to be lesbians and sons to be gay men, starting from their infancy?
“In response Queen Herod (not King Herod as we are told in the Bible) is the one who orders the killing of all the male babies. “
That was my point in the last post: if all male babies were all killed, when their daughters grow up, there would be NO birth at all, how Queen Herod expects her kingdom would last without any heir, male or female⁉️
“And to protect her daughter as a women from men (and the male world), not to protect his dynasty as the Bible tells. Anyway …”
There would be NO dynasty of any kind left to protect, if all male babies are killed‼️ Or, perhaps AI can fertilize and populate Queen Herod dreamed safe dynasty❓
With ChatGPT and Deep Seek as my two TAs, ❄️ can teach Bible now without ever reading it 😋 … how marvelous of our “Brave New World‼️
Hi ❄️,
I think I understand now. There is nothing wrong with sticking to the literal interpretation of the poem. The poets, though, wrote these poems on many different levels, on many different senses. They are professionals and this is just the tools of their trade. We are interpreting these poems in different senses. Nothing inherently better or worse, just different. But, no point in further critiquing specific lines since we’re essentially speaking different languages.
Exactly, linguistically and spiritually….
Hello ❄️!
I wish the world were so simple. (I’ll leave this to your AI of choice. My choice of the devil is Gemini.), but St Augustine had what I remember are 4 ways of literary interpretation. Thomas Aquinas came along and said, that’s not enough, and further added some more. Lots and lots of other ways came along, mostly they are on a more macro level way of interpretation, including all the now infamous critical ways: CRT, critical Marxist theory , critical feminist theory, etc. When you guys critique movies like Damage, you’re
doing a critical limerence theory analysis, which might get your scholarship cancelled.
Hamlet,
From my 1st responsive sentence, I already told you that there was/is NO mad, dead Ophelia or Jungian archetypical Ophelia hidden in my emoji library or in ❄️ ’s entire kingdom, why are you keep circling around the 🐦🔥 ‘ 🪹 ⁉️😉
I no longer need any scholarship for my own limerence healing, I’ve totally recovered and graduated from DrL’s brilliant institute … 💃 Millions of thanks to Dr L, his TA, and some very caring classmates…. 🙏
Good luck to you in finding your lost Ophelia… ‼️🚪
Hi ❄️! Why? Because I was curious. I had a theory that you were one of those people who always had to get the last word in. Hadn’t known yet that you were a twisty, someone who suddenly takes a conversation and twists it in a new direction seemingly out of nowhere. Now I know two things about ❄️. I’m new here and trying to figure my way around and the people on this blog. OK, ❄️ is not someone I’ll communicate with.
As to your response…isn’t thinking that with four responses about a poem on a blog that the other person communicating with you must be limerent for you 😂😂🤷 …er something about you, not me? That’s rhetorical by the way. No need to respond. Unless…
Finally…. 🤐
Art,
Herman Melville
In placid hours well-pleased we dream
Of many a brave unbodied scheme.
But form to lend, pulsed life create,
What unlike things must meet and mate:
A flame to melt—a wind to freeze;
Sad patience—joyous energies;
Humility—yet pride and scorn;
Instinct and study; love and hate;
Audacity—reverence. These must mate,
And fuse with Jacob’s mystic heart,
To wrestle with the angel—Art.
*****
Fused with Jacob’s mystic heart,
Could North Pole and South Pole
Pacify their mighty magnetic
Meet and mate?
🐦🔥
When I Have Fears that I May Cease to Be
John Keats
1795 –1821
When I have fears that I may cease to be
Before my pen has glean’d my teeming brain,
Before high piled books, in charact’ry,
Hold like rich garners the full-ripen’d grain;
When I behold, upon the night’s starr’d face,
Huge cloudy symbols of a high romance,
And think that I may never live to trace
Their shadows, with the magic hand of chance;
And when I feel, fair creature of an hour!
That I shall never look upon thee more,
Never have relish in the faery power
Of unreflecting love!—then on the shore
Of the wide world I stand alone, and think
Till Love and Fame to nothingness do sink.
The Poet
Amy Lowell
1874 –1925
What instinct forces man to journey on,
Urged by a longing blind but dominant!
Nothing he sees can hold him, nothing daunt
His never failing eagerness. The sun
Setting in splendour every night has won
His vassalage; those towers flamboyant
Of airy cloudland palaces now haunt
His daylight wanderings. Forever done
With simple joys and quiet happiness
He guards the vision of the sunset sky;
Though faint with weariness he must possess
Some fragment of the sunset’s majesty;
He spurns life’s human friendships to profess
Life’s loneliness of dreaming ecstasy.
I just got through telling Serial Limerent, above, that there is no active hostility between LO and me. I suddenly realized that I feel a tremendous sense of schadenfreude over the fact that he has lost the house he was buying on the other side of the country.
I guess hostility underlies schadenfreude.
My main reason I guess is disgust with his arrogance, claiming he “deserved” this new house because he has worked so hard all his life. I thought his statements were tone-deaf. Most people work hard their whole lives, but aren’t necessarily blessed with the skills to earn enough money to buy a mansion.
I am not particularly proud of my feelings, but they can be used to advantage in maintaining limited contact. Also, whenever I start to feel mushy toward LO, I can remind myself of some of the things he has said recently, including his most recent: When I asked him why he hadn’t texted me concerning a certain topic, he snapped, “Well, I’ve been a little busy LOSING MY HOUSE!! I don’t have time to think about XX!”
Lovely.
ND,
This is for you!
NSFW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55fzXL3uc1s – “Schadenfreude” Avenue Q
Rather late to the party on this as I’ve just read your book and found out about the blog. I’m pleased you’ve asked these questions as older women’s experiences are often overlooked/not considered. In answer to your questions:
1. Menopause has fired up my libido. I do take HRT including testosterone so that might be contributing to it.
2. As a teenager libido wasn’t tied to limerance at all as I was clueless about sex at that point. I loved the romanticism of it.
3. Menopause has turbo-charged limerance. I’ve had three experiences of it since 2023. The two most recent ones ran concurrently for a while which I didn’t think was suppose to happen. The first one, that manifested in 2023, particularly caught me unawares and knocked me sideways. A real obsession – embarrassing now to think about it.
4. Oh yes – very, very strong. I thought I was past all that, but something in me wanted the drama. I wanted to feel something again. I wanted to fall in love and have a passionate affair – one last time. I didn’t. I’m married. And was wasn’t on the cards anyway. It was all in my head.
5. Menopause transition did change my feelings towards my partner. Before, I didn’t experience limerance for anyone else. Could just be a coincidence, or it could be hormonal changes, or both…
Welcome Orangesoul,
Thank you for sharing your experience. Will you elaborate on your experiences with hormone replacement therapy? I am especially curious about your use of testosterone.
Best wishes!
My experiences? Gosh, well I’ve been using transdermal gel for 7 years. A real game changer in terms of physical symptoms. Testosterone gave me my brain back! And has fired up my libido. I use testogel. Started on Androfeme but didn’t absorb it well and it’s v expensive. Not sure if any of this has to do with experiencing limerence as I’ve always been susceptible. However, as mentioned in my post, it does seem to have re-emerged over the last few years after a period of quiescence.
MJ and LE
I’m laying here not sober and I said when my wife asked me something I said “yes Madison?” “wtf Is Madison?” I don’t even know a gal named Madison. It’s pretty close to LOs name and Imma dig my heels in the dirt and cross my fingers.
To Adam:
You could tell her you were dreaming of Darryl Hannah in the movie called “Splash.” Her character was named Madison.
I don’t know where my brain went with that name. Not sure I’ve any known by that name
Adam, if this happens again, and hopefully it won’t, tell her you were thinking of a memory of Dolly Madison chocolate Zingers. 😋😆Looking back, they probably were so very bad for us, but they had their place in every young boy or young man’s balanced diet.
Okay, this is stupid, but LO calls me “Dali Madison” because I have shoes with Salvador Dali’s “Persistence of Memory” painted on them.
You have great taste in shoes!
To CatCyclist:
Thank you for saying that. I have a lot of weird clothes and shoes.
Some people find me eccentric. Others, like you, appreciate good taste.
Hamlet
The 90’s were a good time for snacks. I worked in a convivence store out of high school and up until I moved out of the state I grew up in. I would always look forward to fresh Dolly Madison and always had a good stab at Hostess when both reps came at the same time. I always liked the spiced mini-donuts from Dolly Madison. But I don’t think they make them anymore.
“I don’t even know a gal named Madison.”
Marcia,
He said “gal”.. Like I say “gal”..
Limerent minds think alike.. 😆😆
A Freudian slip, Sir 🦎! 🫢
You’re in love/LE with the Dame Marcia! 😹
Snow..
True that.. 😆
But she’s not in love with me.. 😪
MJ,
“True that.. 😆
But she’s not in love with me.. 😪”
Not until I see evidence you’ve gotten rid of all the others. 🙂
Oh, and you’ve cleaned Snow’s bathroom. 🙂
“Not until I see evidence you’ve gotten rid of all the others. 🙂”
Marcia
So thats why you didn’t respond to my post a few nights ago..
Hmmm.. Thought I detected jealousy.. 🤔
MJ,
“So thats why you didn’t respond to my post a few nights ago..”
Typical man. You expect me to respond to all your posts but you don’t respond to all mine. 🙂
Marcia
First off and in my defense, I work at night and often don’t have time to read and respond as timely as I’d like.
Besides, I have to read through a novel to get to the 2 paragraphs you actually wrote to me, in a post you probably made to the Snow Queen.
Typical Woman. Blaming the Man for every little thing I let slip. 😆
Sir 💦 🦎 ,
“Besides, I have to read through a novel to get to the 2 paragraphs you actually wrote to me, in a post you probably made to the Snow Queen.”
Feel lucky that the novel did not quietly drop you off somewhere in its small pages 🙄 The worst pain in the world is not being scolded/fought, but ignored/forgotten… Her ladyship has made painstaking efforts day and night to dry the pool of your tears in LwL nursery for months….
Once we managed to remove your piled up 🪣s, knighted you Sir 🦎 , and send you out of the LwL confinement for some fresh air, what did you do⁉️ You lined up 🐥 🐥 🐥 🐥 in front of her ladyship’e eyes, yet without making any earnest woos‼️
“Typical Woman. Blaming the Man for every little thing I let slip. 😆”
Typical 🦎 without a man’s gut — all words, no actions❗️How do you expect her ladyship or any of 🐥 🐥 🐥 🐥 to at least admire your chivalrous gallantry and adore you back❓🤨
Her ladyship has NO need to be jealousy — There is NO 🐥 at all in sight to make her get up of her 👒 🪑🪭.
MJ
“First off and in my defense, I work at night and often don’t have time to read and respond as timely as I’d like.”
But you somehow found time to respond to other posts. So I reprioritized you, equivalent to “email from the dentist ” I’ll get to you when I can. 😀
MJ,
Correction: Other peoples’ posts.
Snow,
“Typical 🦎 without a man’s gut — all words, no actions❗️”
It’s called talking loud and saying nothing! 😀
Dame Marcia,
We say, “only hearing thunder, but not seeing rain drops”.
🎩 🦎 got a bunch of PHANTOM 👻 🐥 👻 🐥 👻 🐥 👻 🐥 dangling in the LwL air…
Disclaimer: I am 100% sober.
Ya’ll might as well already be married the way you go back and forth with each other. Wow a new sister-in-law. That’s gonna take some getting used to.
🎩 🥃, Who 🧐 ❓ Dame 👒 🍫 👠🪭 ❓
Do I need prepare 🍱 🥘, 🧧 🧧and 🥮 🥮 (the Moon festival is coming up on 10/6)❓
But my powder room is not ready yet, talk to your brother, 🎩 🦎❗️
🎩 🥃,
Plus, if you marry off your brother 🎩 🦎, who is left in your side of the singleton camp to ring the Bell of Norte-Dame de LwL? Only 1/2 🗡️ + 1/2 🪭 🤔⁉️
Snow,
He’s not going to marry off his brother. He’s having too much fun hearing about bro’s wild single life. 😀
Lady Marcia,
I hope not!
Only singleton’s life is infinitely imaginative and fascinating! … No “bitter” margin ⛓ or sweet “leash” 🪢, please 💋
“He’s not going to marry off his brother. He’s having too much fun hearing about bro’s wild single life. 😀”
Ladies,
What’s wrong with that??
😆😆
Sir 💦 🦎,
Nothing wrong with THAT at all…game on, game on, and ON❗️
I’m NOT going to let you take my INFP 👯♀️ away without a 🤺, you need to get through Snow Queen’s 🛡️ first and then make an effort to win over her ladyship’s favor‼️
Come on 🫴, you need to work on my powder room before I can hold a feast in ❄️ ‘s garden on the Moon 🌖 Festival… so you get a chance to get closer to her ladyship 👒 👠 🍫 🪭
Snow,
“Nothing wrong with THAT at all…game on, game on, and ON❗️”
Yeah, but he needs to let us know when the game actually starts because right now I don’t see too much action on the field. 🙂
“I’m NOT going to let you take my INFP 👯♀️ away without a 🤺”
No need to fight. I’d pick our friendship over him. 🙂
I see I have somehow offended the Ladyships again. It is not intentional. I probably missed it. Forgive a Brother if you can please. I’ll do double duty on the bathrooms if I must. I have no bad intent.
This is not always an easy forum to keep up with, as messages can get lost in the fray. You know this and I know this. Since we have no real way of personally getting back to one another. We have to leave it to luck of the draw and come back often.
If I’m responding to another’s post, I would think you are supportive of the effort, in that I am trying to help someone out, because I can identify with their plight. Is this not the point of the forum? How would I be today if nobody here ever reached out to me when I was at my limerent worst?? Mother Marcia remembers this. Brother Adam remembers too. I’m sure a few others also.
Forgive me Ladies. I am trying. Without tears if you can believe it. Don’t kick a Brother down when he’s only trying to help.
This is my duty as a terrible Catholic and horrible Christian. We are all in this together..
Did you just actually call me MOTHER Marcia?!!!!
Well, well. Looks like I’m not the only one with mommy issues.
Adam,
Is he over there drinking with you? 🙂
You know that sound the garbage truck makes when it backs out of your driveway … beep, beep, beep … that’s me, permanently backing away from MJ 🙂
🎩 🦎,
“ I am trying. Without tears if you can believe it. “
I’m so sincerely 🥳 😇 for you 👏 👏 👏 ‼️ 🎼 🕺🏿 🎈🎶
“Mother Marcia remembers this. Brother Adam remembers too. I’m sure a few others also.”
😱, you just poked the Queen 🐝 head, are you drunk already? I haven’t started the 🥮 party yet 🙃
🙀 You forgot to credit your Grandpa’s patting 🍭🧁 🍥❓Shame on you 🫣 , shame on you, 🎩 💦 🦎‼️
When are you coming over for your double duty on refreshing my powder room❓😉
“Did you just actually call me MOTHER Marcia?!!!!”
Marcia
Mother, Madam, Feisty Old Broad, what’s the difference?? You know I love you. Stop resisting. No means Yes.
PS, thanks Brother Adam.
I’ll have another cold Guiness now..
🤪😆😎🍻
MJ,
“Mother, Madam, Feisty Old Broad, what’s the difference??”
It’s a HUGE difference. And I don’t like “old.”
These are fireable offenses. Freeze up the Netherlands offenses. At least for you. 🙂
“These are fireable offenses. Freeze up the Netherlands offenses. At least for you. 🙂”
Marcia
Dang, thats how you feel? Now you don’t like old? Alright your Ladyship. I will respect. Just don’t let me catch you calling yourself old again. Got it?
Gotta keep you around to keep me in line, in case I fall off the wagon. Although I guess if I do, you’ll just laugh.. 😆
MJ,
“Dang, thats how you feel? Now you don’t like old?”
You’re JUST figuring this out? Really?
“Gotta keep you around to keep me in line, in case I fall off the wagon.”
You love it. You’re be bored with a nice girl. 🙂
“Although I guess if I do, you’ll just laugh.. 😆”
Haven’t you and Brother already fallen off the wagon? 🙂
Dame Marcia
If you mean the Limerence wagon, I don’t think so. I’ve maintained NC and haven’t been ruminating. If you’re talking about alcohol I never got on that damn wagon. Felt no need to.
My father and mother 80% of the time addressed each other as mom and dad. The other 20% was pet names. My mother even called her mother-in-law mom.
My brother keep on trucking she’ll come around eventually. 😉
“Haven’t you and Brother already fallen off the wagon? 🙂”
Marcia
As for the wagon, LO is the type that makes me fall off furniture. So like my Brother, I don’t think I was ever on the wagon either. Things might be LC these days but I ruminate.
Just thinking about or looking at her pic will cause me to become weak..
Thanks Adam, I know its a process with the Dame. We ebb and flow. I know she’ll come around.
I appreciate your support.
MJ
“As for the wagon, LO is the type that makes me fall off furniture. So like my Brother, I don’t think I was ever on the wagon either. Things might be LC these days but I ruminate.
Just thinking about or looking at her pic will cause me to become weak..”
I meant drinking, but you and your fellow perv brother went right to women in your posts. 😀
“Thanks Adam, I know its a process with the Dame. We ebb and flow. I know she’ll come around.
I appreciate your support”
No. Dame is on the lookout for some better options. 😀
Adam,
“My father and mother 80% of the time addressed each other as mom and dad.”
So did my grandparents. But I’m not a parent so a man calling me Mother or Mom would skeeve me out.
Word of the day
“Skeeve”
Thanks Beautiful.. 😊
Adding that one to my not-used-enough-but-need-to-use-more-vocabulary book of words.. 😆
MJ
Adam’s favorite less used by modern society, hussy. I don’t know I’ve gotten blank stares when I use it with context. Are you not astute enough to grasp the meaning from the context?
“He cheated on her with some trailer trash hussy.”
Adam,
Yeah hussy is another word that doesn’t get a lot of usage. Think I remember my Mother using that word now and then.
I like it. Reminds me of harlot or vamp or seductress..
Adjacent, Against, Upon
Rick Barot
—after Michael Heizer
I may be looking at the set of boulders
that is now in front of me, but it is you I am addressing.
You are near or you are far,
depending on the accuracy of the words I have chosen.
When my teacher told me to use this
instead of the, she was talking about the range between
the intimate and the conventional. The gray cluster
is radiant, but it is a melancholy radiance.
To describe it only seems to lean away
from what I intend. Maybe, then, touch is a better way
of explaining the pleasure of that
encounter: the surprise and familiarity of the plant
that you brush past in the dark of your
own house. Or maybe the always-new logic of a dream
is closer to the truth: the falling that takes place
in a place where there is no ground.
The boulders are there for me, an arrangement
and its warren of rooms. One door opening to foggy roses.
Another one opening to a dawn that is the color of tea.
Surely there will always be new language
to tell you who I am, imagination rousing
out of idleness into urgency, reaching now towards you.
I keep remembering my teacher and she is an image
of joy, the small and wordless music
of her silver bangles. This over the.
One of the rules for writing the poems of a lonely person
A Bookshelf
Hua Xi
My father read a mountain aloud.
Opened to a page
where a green bird lands on a thunderclap.
Named for the billowing hands of
brittle blue flowers.
As if the unfinished poetry of the paraffin
is pulled aside like scenery,
so that I may write by the only light I know.
My father read only his one life and recited
the last line over and over.
The book is written in giant letters of fog
that wander like goats across the alpine pastures.
The moon is dog-eared as if the treetops looking up
have studied the idea of love too much.
On a page with some scattered pine needles,
a voice goes on calling out to me.
My father learned to read
in a one-room schoolhouse,
and never read a poem.
A little herd of lightning
gets spoken out loud in the dark.
Change
is scenic and sudden.
One year, I came home
and all the leaves fell off my father.
After that,
he was winter.
To the New Journal
Susan Rich
after W. S. Merwin
Let’s just listen—
before the spent words and the hidden nests
of sentences begin, before the musical count
of vowels and consonants, the ink
not yet slippery with wild grief
or souped-up grandeur.
I wish to arrange you—
with a few half-formed couplets—
inquiries without answers.
But what can we do? These mountains are still
young and rising, I write. Yet,
even the fields call to an orchestra of stars.
Even the birds sing to-do lists.
Still Life with Ladder
Susan Rich
Today, the sky saved my life
caught between smoked rum and cornflower.
Today, there is a color I can’t name cruising past
the backdoor – it is the idea of color.
Cloudscapes evaporate like love songs
across lost islands, each a small bit coin of thought.
Today, I am alive and this is a good thing—
clams in the half shell, a lemon rosemary tart.
I live in the day and the day lives past me.
If I could draw a map of the hours, a long
horizon would travel on indefinitely ~ a green, backlit thread.
The sky? It is never the same – it is sour milk
and whipped cream, a sketchbook and flour-dusted jeans.
Today, I am in love with the sky.
It doesn’t care if my father is dead,
or that I live by myself with his Masonic watch.
I sew time with my mother’s button jar.
I’ve improvised my life ~ let the sky pull the strings.
Tonight, I will borrow the golden ladder from the orchard,
travel from this sphere into the next and expunge
the leftover sadness of the hemispheres, to move beyond
the beyond which is here, present, alive in this hyacinth room;
time leaps over itself, after and out of the tangled past
over shadows of weather falling across a back window~
to forgive one another; to try once more to live it right.
Hi all, hi dr.L
I am not in menopause yet, but talking about hormonal changes i thought this might contribute. I’m about 5 month pregnant.
The pregnancy started at (what I thought was the end of ) a 2 year period of intense limerence, on a scale I now realize I had never experienced before, and for a woman (not my usual choice, and SO is a guy).
I had made my choice to stay with SO, but the start of the pregnancy got me anxious to embark in this adventure and family while I was not so sure in my heart (due to LO) and wondering how I was gonna tell her, which makes me think it was not that over.
Then, in the course of a few weeks/ months, it seems to have cleared everything up.
The obsessive thoughts have stopped. Her name’s still sometimes pop in my head, but just with fondness and no daydreaming or scenarios of any kind. I’ve completely lost the crippling anxiety of saying/doing something wrong or disappointing her and my tendancy to get hurt by everything she said (or didn’t), which plagued all our exchanges, so we actually get along much better. Less anxiety means my mood has considerably improved and I realize know I was in a really bad place these last years, despite the occasional highs of LE. I can look and care for SO again and we have much improved too.
I don’t know if it’s the hormones, the brain re-wiring in preparation for motherhood ( it’s my first),or just the added sens of purpose, or everything in combination with a summer break of 2 month NC, but the obsession seems to have cleared (sorry it’s also why I haven’t been visiting here much). I’m hoping this stays post-partum…
I know you (Dr. L.) link the average limerence time with pair bonding and the needed time to have a kid get out of infancy, and my experience is not universal, but I don’t think I could still be limerent for my partner while pregnant at this stage. Feelings seems to have changed toward fondness and love rather than obsession.
Also not commenting on the libido question I think that’s relatively well documented in my situation 🤣
All the best to you all
Limerent Nurse & Marcia,
Thought this might be quite funny yet similar or accurate to your sentimentality❓
https://youtu.be/7hxcNuOaa0s?si=oqisrhE3nZJJrMan — The Brutality of Dating
Snow,
“Thought this might be quite funny yet similar or accurate to your sentimentality❓”
I’ve watched “School of Life” videos before. I’m probably the wrong person to ask. Recent dating was a way to distract my thoughts of … well, you know. And to prove to myself there were other guys out there. Ha! And there are … but you did the online thing. You know what it’s like.
I’m not really doing anything with it now. I still have profile up and I check it. I suppose if I was really interested — which as we’ve agreed is hard to gauge from a one-dimensional image — I might respond to one of the likes, but I otherwise can’t get myself to do it. And I’m swamped right now with this side hustle.
👒 🍫 🪭,
“I’ve watched “School of Life” videos before. I’m probably the wrong person to ask. “
I was not asking anything from anyone, just thought the video is so humorous 🤭 with its language and images — on how brutal dating could be, online or offline❗️ I’m glad that I’m a pure observer 👁️🗨️
“Recent dating was a way to distract my thoughts of … well, you know. “
Yes, we followed your dating 👣 , and our heart 🌊 surged and ebbed for our ☝️ One and Only ☝️ Ladyship de Marcia! 👒 👠 🪭 💋
“And to prove to myself there were other guys out there. Ha! “
Of course, there are other guys out there; the half of our race has not been all killed by Herod King 👑 or Queen👸… thank God! 😇 But they were mostly lukewarm 😤, not reaching up your ladyship’s 🔥 👀 , except L🅾️ or L🅾️-Lite.…
“And there are … but you did the online thing. You know what it’s like.”
Remind me about it ‼️🙄… I went to celibacy more than 1.5 decade after that period (LE included) 🥹🥹 😭 😭
“I’m not really doing anything with it now. I still have profile up and I check it. I suppose if I was really interested — which as we’ve agreed is hard to gauge from a one-dimensional image — I might respond to one of the likes, but I otherwise can’t get myself to do it. “
With one-dimensional image 🖼️ , I can’t affirm how much I like a person; but I I can tell how much I dislike him/her…. There is always something coming through their eyes… especially if they put out their best images…
Also, from one’s words, as soon as they open their mouth, I could 👁️ “gauge”…. Sorry, I can’t help my ISS — Intuitive Sensitivity and Sensitivity 😉
“And I’m swamped right now with this side hustle.”
I’m cheering up here — GO, GO, GO‼️ Focus on what’s the most important and concrete to YOU, you alone❗️ 💪 Be Smartly Selfish ‼️— BSS 😎
I’m cheering YOU up here — G🅾️, G🅾️, G🅾️‼️
Snow,
“I was not asking anything from anyone, just thought the video is so humorous 🤭 with its language and images — on how brutal dating could be, online or offline❗️”
I didn’t think it was funny at all. The message was that people go on dates to ward off their existential crisis of being alone when they die.
“Yes, we followed your dating 👣 , and our heart 🌊 surged and ebbed for our ☝️ One and Only ☝️ Ladyship de Marcia! 👒 👠 🪭 💋”
I mean … not that much really happened. I look back at it now and think … Why was I putting so much energy/emotion toward it? (The dating, I mean.) Much ado about nothing at the end of the day.
“But they were mostly lukewarm 😤, not reaching up your ladyship’s 🔥 👀 , except L🅾️ or L🅾️-Lite.…”
Oh, yeah. Not even close. I did think the guy I went out with twice was cute. Maybe a level 7-8 on the first date. About a 5 on the second. It stung at the time I didn’t hear from him again, but now I don’t care.
“Remind me about it ‼️🙄… I went to celibacy more than 1.5 decade after that period (LE included) 🥹🥹 😭 😭”
I get it. It makes you want to put your Netherlands in the freezer.
“With one-dimensional image 🖼️ , I can’t affirm how much I like a person; but I I can tell how much I dislike him/her…. There is always something coming through their eyes… especially if they put out their best images…”
And some of the pictures are just so bad. One guy had only one photo and he was wearing sunglasses and a hat in it! I think you have to let people see what you look like. At least one face shot, one full body shot. Clear photos. No hats, no sunglasses, no weird angles, nothing obscuring the view.
“I’m cheering up here — GO, GO, GO‼️ Focus on what’s the most important and concrete to YOU, you alone❗️ 💪 Be Smartly Selfish ‼️— BSS 😎”
I appreciate the cheering! 🙂
Miss Marcia,
“I didn’t think it was funny at all. The message was that people go on dates to ward off their existential crisis of being alone when they die.”
I still think it’s humorous on our collective shared human fear! It’s here or there for everyone, coming and coming, nowhere else to run to… so what one can do about it❓Perhaps mentally defy it by making HERE much better/brighter/filler that one can hardly think or worry about THERE❓
By your words as a mirror, I think I’ve even reduced that huge existential crisis (without knowing/noticing it lately) to perhaps 10~20 % ❓ Didn’t we all come to this world alone?
In theory, I could suddenly die tomorrow, yet I’m chatting with you here gleefully, with 5 types of Greek love sitting or pounding on my chest; where/what is the fear⁉️ I must be taking tomorrow for granted… or too focused on Now and Here… 🤔
Using dating to ward off their existential crisis is understandable but futile. Only truly feeling connected with another human soul (not just being loved, but able to love), one could reduce existential crisis, imp.
“I mean … not that much really happened. I look back at it now and think … Why was I putting so much energy/emotion toward it? (The dating, I mean.) Much ado about nothing at the end of the day.”
Your ladyship, how much coffee did you drink this morning? 😳
“I did think the guy I went out with twice was cute. Maybe a level 7-8 on the first date. About a 5 on the second. It stung at the time I didn’t hear from him again, but now I don’t care.”
Haya….! When you get there, it becomes here… Move on‼️
“I get it. It makes you want to put your Netherlands in the freezer.”
What an appropriate metaphor❗️🤣 I’ve frozen my Netherlands to others for 17 years, with 3 checkup defrosts, to zero out any possible wearing/tearing. 😉
“And some of the pictures are just so bad. One guy had only one photo and he was wearing sunglasses and a hat in it! “
He’s definitely hiding something from external, amorously prying 👀 🥰
“I think you have to let people see what you look like. At least one face shot, one full body shot. Clear photos. No hats, no sunglasses, no weird angles, nothing obscuring the view.”
I’ve swept the sites like I was checking out a dress or something.
“I appreciate the cheering! 🙂”
You’re welcome! Please focus your precious time and energy on something truly meaningful or useful to YOU! 🫂
I really appreciate your tolerant👂 (and other invisible ones) for my never ending ramblings…, which brings its own special light to my trivial existence…. 😃
A post popped up in my Reddit feed last night, a woman complaining about men turning mean after sleeping with her. A lot of commenters had the same problem. Some guys came in and said it was “post-nut clarity,” but others said that was a misogynist way to look at it. It was suggested that it happens so much because of influencers in the manosphere pushing it as a way to get women to submit. In any case, I kept seeing comments like “Dating these days sucks, so I went celibate, and I’m much happier.”
Serial Limerent,
What does “getting mean” mean, exactly? The man ignores the woman or ghosts? If so, that’s not getting mean so much as sex was all he wanted.
Or he thought he wanted a romantic relationship until they had sex and he learned something — either specifically in regards to the sex they had or about the woman as a person — that turned him off to continuing to date/get into a relationship. Happens for women, too, I’m sure.
I know I am old fashioned and not one to understand the modern dating scene; but depending on how early into dating someone sex happens, I kind of lack empathy. (Obviously other than if he is abusive or the situation lacks consent.) If you are willingly jumping in bed together while the dates are still in the single digits why would a woman, or even a man, be surprised that the other person’s attitude changed when they got what they wanted? You obliged early on, and they took advantage.
The other thing is, depending on your age and your date’s age there is a generation of adults, well I guess actually two generations, that grew up with the internet where everything is sexualized. And I don’t just mean pornography. i don’t know how it effects women because I am not one, but I know how it can affect and poison the minds of men. I’m not saying it is a valid excuse for bad behavior, but it is the reality of life in America, at least.
Sex should be cherished not handed out like candy on Halloween. I am not saying that this woman has no standards as what has been posted is very vague. Just the ramblings of an old fashioned man that knows he has no place in this world anymore.
From what I recall, the guys would get actively mean, getting snarky, etc. Here’s the post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/8aM2q1ralE
Adam,
“If you are willingly jumping in bed together while the dates are still in the single digits why would a woman, or even a man, be surprised that the other person’s attitude changed when they got what they wanted? ”
You need TEN dates or more to get into bed with someone? All I can say is … it better be damn good once you get down to it. 🙂 I think 10 dates is little much (depending on the context), but I agree with you that if you jump into bed with someone really early in the dating process and you don’t know them well and if they’re dating other people and if they want anything more from you than just an evening, you’re rolling the dice.
“You obliged early on, and they took advantage.”
I think they only take advantage if they lie about what they want.
Serial,
I skimmed it, but the posts pretty much talk about what I was saying: “the shag and ditch” approach.
I don’t know the exact situations of the posters, but if you don’t want that to happen, don’t hook up with guys who aren’t your boyfriend. (It could still happen, but the chances are lower.) And dating for a while doesn’t mean he’s your boyfriend. I had a friend who dated a guy for … 5 months ? Finally hooks up with him and then gets mad when she finds out he’s seeing other women. But … they only saw each other about once a week and she only heard from him to setup the dates and they had never discussed getting serious/being in a relationship. That’s what I meant when I wrote to Adam it’s all context dependent. To me, they were definitely dating, but they weren’t serious.
Miss Snow,
“❓Perhaps mentally defy it by making HERE much better/brighter/filler that one can hardly think or worry about THERE❓”
Shove it down. Repress it.
“By your words as a mirror, I think I’ve even reduced that huge existential crisis (without knowing/noticing it lately) to perhaps 10~20 % ❓ Didn’t we all come to this world alone?”
Yes, but some people will have no help if they do eventually need it as they age. That is something I worry about as I have no expectation my family will do anything.
“In theory, I could suddenly die tomorrow, yet I’m chatting with you here gleefully, with 5 types of Greek love sitting or pounding on my chest; where/what is the fear⁉️ I must be taking tomorrow for granted… or too focused on Now and Here… 🤔”
That’s what I am hoping for. I’m still in good condition (I mean years from now) and then, out of nowhere, without any warning, I drop dead. No major illnesses or need for a nursing facility.
“Only truly feeling connected with another human soul (not just being loved, but able to love), one could reduce existential crisis, imp.”
I guess, but it’s basically … are they going to help you if you need it?
[“I mean … not that much really happened. I look back at it now and think … Why was I putting so much energy/emotion toward it? (The dating, I mean.) Much ado about nothing at the end of the day.”]
“Your ladyship, how much coffee did you drink this morning? 😳”
I’m not sure what you mean. I got all worked up over nothing when I was on the dating sites. And all that time and energy amounted to 3 dates with 2 … well, yuckie-poo men. 🙂 Was it worth it?
“What an appropriate metaphor❗️🤣 I’ve frozen my Netherlands to others for 17 years, with 3 checkup defrosts, to zero out any possible wearing/tearing. 😉”
How long were the three checkups? One night or longer? 🙂 I’ve had extensive periods of being in the freezer. Got defrosted a bit a few months ago … but I’m back to where I was. Stone cold. 🙂
“I’ve swept the sites like I was checking out a dress or something.”
Yes. Like looking at an LL Bean catalogue. “Hmmm,” you think to yourself, “these clothes are all starting to blend together.” 🙂
“I really appreciate your tolerant👂 (and other invisible ones) for my never ending ramblings…, which brings its own special light to my trivial existence…. 😃”
You’re welcome. And for those who don’t want to listen … they don’t have to read the posts!
Marcia,
[“❓Perhaps mentally defy it by making HERE much better/brighter/filler that one can hardly think or worry about THERE❓”]
“Shove it down. Repress it.”
I don’t want to repress or shove it, or it will backfire. I meant to make our Now and Here as good as it could be, since one day it will be all gone with wind! Because there is an expiration date for our life, we’d better to take a full advantage of what we already have and could enjoy here and now, instead of worrying or whining about what we don’t or cannot have — a BP, not L🅾️😤 We could enjoy friendship better, if romance is not in the menu.
“Yes, but some people will have no help if they do eventually need it as they age. That is something I worry about as I have no expectation my family will do anything.”
That’s true. I haven’t thought about it much. I dislike to rely on anyone, whether they’re available or willing. I keep telling Mother she’s lucky, because no matter how much I dislike her, I can’t drop her off anywhere. But she has become more and more grateful for what I did and would do for her. She no longer gives me any attitude, and I am rarely annoyed by her presence nowadays. Death enters my head whenever I see her…
“That’s what I am hoping for. I’m still in good condition (I mean years from now) and then, out of nowhere, without any warning, I drop dead. No major illnesses or need for a nursing facility.”
That’s what I’d hope, too, without slow torturing illness, that’s why I spent so much time and effort to maintain health. I hope with my Granny’s genes, I could pass 💯 yrs with little healthy issues. For the first time in the past 8 years, all my index numbers in blood work are normal, and on the street, it’s always me who zooms passing people, while allowing no one else to pass me.
“I guess, but it’s basically … are they going to help you if you need it?”
In the old age, it might be hard to get our peers to help out; so one needs to make friends with the younger generation, or save enough money for a nursing home.
[“Your ladyship, how much coffee did you drink this morning? 😳”]
“I’m not sure what you mean.”
I was teasing you — did you drink too much coffee this morning so suddenly you realized what you were been doing on the dating sites for the past months… 🤭
“How long were the three checkups? One night or longer? 🙂 “
Always from 24-36 hours at either’s home (it’s with LO5), no strangers since 2008 after finishing with LO6.
“I’ve had extensive periods of being in the freezer. Got defrosted a bit a few months ago … but I’m back to where I was. Stone cold. 🙂”
I’m not cold at all (have a 28 yrs Lim pet tailing along 🤨)❗️I only said I didn’t take any guest on MFf, but did not say how often I drove sole… the engine would get rusty if not kept oiled. Without the regular, multiple trips to the Moon and back, how could you keep your mood high, “carefree” for a few hours or days⁉️. No wonder you were grumpy/feisty so often — I’m pulling your 🦵🏽, your ladyship 🤭
“Yes. Like looking at an LL Bean catalogue. “Hmmm,” you think to yourself, “these clothes are all starting to blend together.” 🙂”
Exactly! No better words can describe it — mind 🧠 numbing and yawn 🥱 inducing… how could anyone there appear sexy ⁉️ It’s so dehumanizing❗️
“You’re welcome. And for those who don’t want to listen … they don’t have to read the posts!”
I disagree with you on a lot of things, but you asked a lot of questions that often span my head elsewhere…. that’s what I’ve always looked for in another mind since very young; otherwise I got bored speedily…. my enneagram is 5.
Yes, everyone has a choice of what to read or not to ear-drop. If they get annoyed by our big or small chats, that’s entirely their own responsibility by choice 🙄❗️
Gossip of the day 👂 : in Austen’s P&P, I didn’t remember Mr. Collins is a party crusher, is he ⁉️ 🤭
Dame Marcia
I was a virgin when I got married. That might give you a hint as to how well I need to get to know a woman before I’ll bed her. Sex for the sake of sex never appealed to me. I can do that myself.
Dame Marcia,
“I was a virgin when I got married. That might give you a hint as to how well I need to get to know a woman before I’ll bed her. Sex for the sake of sex never appealed to me. ”
I knew that. I was teasing you a bit. I’m somewhere in the middle. Sex does mean something to me. But it’s not quite on the same serious par as it is for you.
And your brother, as you well know … he’s on the other extreme. A complete himbo. 🙂
Snow,
“We could enjoy friendship better, if romance is not in the menu.”
You’re preaching to the choir on this. I wish people took friendship more seriously. They don’t.
[“Yes, but some people will have no help if they do eventually need it as they age. That is something I worry about as I have no expectation my family will do anything.”]
“That’s true. I haven’t thought about it much.”
I do. It’s almost always in the back of my mind. Maybe it’s hitting my 50s. It never used to bother me. It does now.
” I dislike to rely on anyone, whether they’re available or willing.”
I don’t like it, either, but what if you have to? What if you have no choice?
“But she has become more and more grateful for what I did and would do for her. She no longer gives me any attitude”
That’s good. I’m glad she’s at least somewhat appreciative.
“That’s what I’d hope, too, without slow torturing illness”
Exactly. I’m still in my own home, independent, in good physical/mental shape, doing activities I like, with a coterie of older gentlemen callers (I’m teasing; maybe by then I’ll be done with the other side) … and one day I go to bed and don’t get up again.
“I hope with my Granny’s genes, I could pass 💯 yrs with little healthy issues. For the first time in the past 8 years, all my index numbers in blood work are normal, and on the street, it’s always me who zooms passing people, while allowing no one else to pass me.”
That’s good. In my family, I see mental decline. Pretty good physical shape as they age, but not mentally. That scares me.
“In the old age, it might be hard to get our peers to help out; so one needs to make friends with the younger generation”
Huh? I don’t think friends are going to do much. Younger or older.
“or save enough money for a nursing home.”
So having loved ones to care for you can somehow be substituted with a nursing home? I don’t think so.
“I was teasing you — did you drink too much coffee this morning so suddenly you realized what you were been doing on the dating sites for the past months… 🤭”
I haven’t been on them continuously for months. I was on one for about a month several months ago. That’s when I had the 3 dates. Then I deleted my profile. Over about the last two months, I started up again on another site. This time around I have done almost nothing with it. I have responded to a few messages. That’s it. I can’t seem to get myself to do any more.
“Always from 24-36 hours at either’s home (it’s with LO5), no strangers since 2008 after finishing with LO6”
A sex session for 24 to 36 hours? GURRRLLLL! That’s a long time. 🙂
“I’m not cold at all (have a 28 yrs Lim pet tailing along 🤨)❗️I only said I didn’t take any guest on MFf, but did not say how often I drove sole… the engine would get rusty if not kept oiled.”
I consider it “in the freezer” if … um … no other party is thawing it out. 🙂
“Exactly! No better words can describe it — mind 🧠 numbing and yawn 🥱 inducing… how could anyone there appear sexy ⁉️ It’s so dehumanizing❗️”
Yes. Yawn inducing. And those LL Bean clothes are SOOOO bland. It’s like variations of taupe paint.
” my enneagram is 5.”
You’re an investigator. The Intense, Cerebral Type: Perceptive, Innovative, Secretive, and Isolated. (That’s the Enneagram Institute’s description.)
“Yes, everyone has a choice of what to read or not to ear-drop. If they get annoyed by our big or small chats, that’s entirely their own responsibility by choice 🙄❗️”
Yes! So when a certain gentleman … cough, cough … complains about having to read through our posts … don’t read them!
“Gossip of the day 👂 : in Austen’s P&P, I didn’t remember Mr. Collins is a party crusher, is he ⁉️ 🤭”
Hmmm …. I seem to remember, during his visit to the Bennetts, that the girls are going to visit their aunt and he invites himself along. Although he is their house guest. You wouldn’t NOT include him. Would be rude. The actor in the 1995 mini series is so good in that part. Obsequious, fawning, ridiculous.
👒 Marcia 👠
[We could enjoy friendship better, if romance is not on the menu.] “You’re preaching to the choir on this. I wish people took friendship more seriously. They don’t. “
Forget about other “people”, “Hell is other people”. As long as you and I care, we’re going to have fantastic jolly time! 👯♀️
“It’s almost always in the back of my mind. Maybe it’s hitting my 50s. It never used to bother me. It does now. “
Well, keep the thought in your mind or put it out of your mind will not change the fact that the clock is ticking, so why NOT try to put other cheerful thoughts in your mind, e.g “I can live up to 104 years old, so I still have a half of time left…” ❓
[” I dislike to rely on anyone, whether they’re available or willing.”] “I don’t like it, either, but what if you have to? What if you have no choice? “
Well, “The cart will find its way around the hill when it gets there.” (COO) Or “We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.” I’ll figure it out when I get there, now worrying about it does help anything. However, we do prepare for financial means just in case, in this country, one most likely needs it.
“That’s good. I’m glad she’s at least somewhat appreciative. “
Anyone can change no matter how old they are or how calcified they seem to be. I have faith on this, no matter how reality shows otherwise.
“I’m still in my own home, independent, in good physical/mental shape, doing activities I like, with a coterie of older gentlemen callers (I’m teasing; maybe by then I’ll be done with the other side) … “
“With a coterie of older gentlemen callers” 😳 Oh, No your ladyship❗️ Ignore such a group, go to hospital cribs to snatch baby boys, our womanhood and golden age are hanging on their fast, gallant growth 🌱 😍 Now, do you understand why I hate that Queen Herod — she wants to starve this babysnatcher’s appetite‼️
Never to be done with the other side; otherwise, the reservoir of our courtly jests will dry up 🥹 🥲 … We need to keep them around for fun… Just feed them with well-masked flatter — they need inexhaustible validation all the time…
“That’s good. In my family, I see mental decline. Pretty good physical shape as they age, but not mentally. That scares me. “
Yes, a sharp mental shape needs to be maintained no matter at what age, more important than physical shape. One good way is to learn a new foreign language even if you’re 93! Another way is to earnestly “meddle” with others’ business like my Granny with her great grandchildren, and your ladyship with your brother-dudes, protégés, etc.
“Huh? I don’t think friends are going to do much. Younger or older. “
Maybe form a real friendship that two or three of you could support and accompany each other in a co-habitation community, like the NYT article I illicitly posted here? I can join you.
“So having loved ones to care for you can somehow be substituted with a nursing home? I don’t think so. “
Of course not‼️ But if without loved ones around, one can at least find a community in a nursing home, no? I visited my SO’s granny several time in a very wealthy nursing home (she had stroke and was half paralyzed back then), which depressed me for days after each vist.
My Granny always had my uncle, aunt or my Dad (with a bunch of cousins) to take care of and she seriously “meddled” with her grand and great grandchildren’s upbringings; every time we teased or “complained” about her caring sincerity, she just giggled 🤭 like a little girl, so cute! At age of 103, she’s still trying to recall certain memories in her youth to me…
“I haven’t been on them continuously for months. I was on one for about a month several months ago. That’s when I had the 3 dates. Then I deleted my profile. Over about the last two months, I started up again on another site. This time around I have done almost nothing with it. I have responded to a few messages. That’s it. I can’t seem to get myself to do any more. “
🤭 Don’t worry, your ladyship! I was not “accusing” you for being on any dating site. 😀 It’s just the whole LwL had watched how earnestly you were preparing for those countable dates❗️You were so cute when it comes to verbally or physically impress your never met app men… 🤭
“A sex session for 24 to 36 hours? GURRRLLLL! That’s a long time. “
It’s fwb, with the first initial standing for “friend”. What do you do with a rarely-seen, long-term, so-so friend? Coffee/tea, cooking, dinner, chats/complaints about all unfairness in the universe… MFf, nap, MFf, nap… brunch…chats… It’s a trip to the galaxy (not just to the moon and back repeatedly), what do you expect? 😉
“I consider it “in the freezer” if … um … no other party is thawing it out. “
That’s why you and some other women become so “dependent” or desperate in this arena… 😉. Millioneum Falcon can fly superbly with or without a passenger, what differences do they make physiologically? So you’d starve it if without a (lousy) passenger to share the delicacies⁉️ You’d just wait and wish an unknown app man’s sudden drop from the sky, while feelings restless or grumpy❓ I’m talking about physical and mental heath here… 😊
”You’re an investigator. The Intense, Cerebral Type: Perceptive, Innovative, Secretive, and Isolated. (That’s the Enneagram Institute’s description.) “
😳! This enneagram Institute seems to have stalked me personally… they’re damn accurate, except that I’m not that secretive at age of 286… Yes, you’re chatting with an old urban hermit who almost never felt FOMO, but I have to go to see Dimash tomorrow, ohhlala… I’m getting nervous… 😬
“So when a certain gentleman … cough, cough … complains about having to read through our posts … don’t read them! “
“A certain gentleman”🤔 where❓Your dude or the self-claimed “bad boy” without **cough, cough** ❓Grandson or Grandpa?❓Well, it’s the same 💦⤵️ 💧⤵️ 😆 clan anyway…. 😉
Your ladyship, please think positively — the pair (maybe more invisible and silent ones behind the curtain), just can’t resist your charm, wits, brevity, and our inexhaustible, womanly, courtly jests… It’s an honor, right ⁉️Our novel needs readers, right⁉️
“Hmmm …. I seem to remember, during his visit to the Bennetts, that the girls are going to visit their aunt and he invites himself along. “
So insensible, pompous, and obsequious…, despite he’s a learned clergy man.
“Although he is their house guest. You wouldn’t NOT include him. Would be rude. The actor in the 1995 mini series is so good in that part. Obsequious, fawning, ridiculous.”
I’m certain that Mr. Collins had never read Shakespeare, because he couldn’t recognize a Shakespearian farewell in good faith, let alone to take it gracefully and exist smartly, which forced Lizzie to tell him the following time what she meant… 😃
This afternoon I was helping paper cutting in the youngest class with 1 girl and 3 boys (aged 4-6, so adorable). The teacher tried to encourage them to write characters correctly, and mindlessly said repeatedly, “boys have to write them well… boys must write them correctly…” So this 5 yrs boy immediately asked, “why BOYS must write them well?” The teacher didn’t answer the question, so the boy kept going, “why BOYS must write them correctly, why boys…. ”.
Then I chuckled, and the teacher (also my friend) also laughed, but she still would not answer his question…. The kid evidently didn’t understand why we both just 🤭 🤭. I marveled at young kids are so innately sensitive to a cultural “absurdity” and resisted a “brainwash”❗️
“The child is father of the man.” Sometime, children know better than men‼️
Typo:
1. “let alone to take it gracefully and exit smartly,”
Again, the same cultural slip —
2. “ now worrying about it does NOT help anything.”
Do you see an influence of the cultural script: We grew up not allowed to say “No” or “Not” directly to anyone (but find an indirect, courteous way to deliver it) … so my hand just kept slipping it out repeatedly (how many times already⁉️), no matter how my logical brain told it the otherwise…
But if I borrowed a piece of well-known literature or mythology to subtly express a “No”, the other side often didn’t get it…🙃 or their ego prevented them from getting it…. 🙂
Snow,
“Forget about other “people”, “Hell is other people”. As long as you and I care, we’re going to have fantastic jolly time! 👯♀️”
True. 🙂
“Well, keep the thought in your mind or put it out of your mind will not change the fact that the clock is ticking”
It’s no so much that as my options are limited if I get sick and need help because I have so little family. Even if i get married, statistically speaking, I’ll probably outlive him. So I’ll be in the same boat. And then … I’ll have had to suffer through years of marriage … 🙂
“Anyone can change no matter how old they are or how calcified they seem to be. I have faith on this, no matter how reality shows otherwise.”
I believe that as well. People can change.
““With a coterie of older gentlemen callers” 😳 Oh, No your ladyship❗️ Ignore such a group, go to hospital cribs to snatch baby boys, our womanhood and golden age are hanging on their fast, gallant growth 🌱 ”
What does that mean? Seek out younger men? I was just being realistic about my options. Although older men probably won’t be options when I’m older. When I’m 80, guys my age will probably be chasing after 50-year-olds.
“We need to keep them around for fun… Just feed them with well-masked flatter — they need inexhaustible validation all the time…”
Ain’t that the truth.
“Another way is to earnestly “meddle” with others’ business like my Granny with her great grandchildren, and your ladyship with your brother-dudes, protégés, etc.”
Your grandmother sounds fun.
“Maybe form a real friendship that two or three of you could support and accompany each other in a co-habitation community, like the NYT article I illicitly posted here? I can join you.”
I read an article about six middle-aged female friends ? buying a house together to eventually retire in together. Idk. There’s a big part of me that doesn’t believe it would actually happen. People would get distracted with family stuff.
” I visited my SO’s granny several time in a very wealthy nursing home (she had stroke and was half paralyzed back then), which depressed me for days after each visit.”
Yes, that would be very difficult. For her and the family.
“At age of 103, she’s still trying to recall certain memories in her youth to me…”
103?! Wow. How old was she when she passed?
“🤭 Don’t worry, your ladyship! I was not “accusing” you for being on any dating site. 😀”
I just wanted it to be clear: I hadn’t spent THAT much time on them. 🙂 I checked. I’ve been on them for about 6 weeks this second time around.
” It’s just the whole LwL had watched how earnestly you were preparing for those countable dates❗️”
Well, you were.
“It’s a trip to the galaxy (not just to the moon and back repeatedly), what do you expect? 😉”
What’s a “trip to the galaxy”? Sex? An fwb doesn’t really send me to the moon. Unless he’s an LO.
” I’m talking about physical and mental heath here… 😊”
I didn’t say I never … er… got on the plane myself. It just doesn’t compare to riding on the plane with a partner.
“😳! This enneagram Institute seems to have stalked me personally… they’re damn accurate”
That’s exactly what I thought when I read mine. It’s the Individualist. The Sensitive, Introspective Type: Expressive, Dramatic, Self-Absorbed, and Temperamental.
Ouch. That’s not all that flattering. 🙂
“but I have to go to see Dimash tomorrow, ohhlala… I’m getting nervous… 😬”
Have a great time! I bet you will. In looking at those clips you posted … he’s very talented.
““A certain gentleman”🤔 where❓Your dude or the self-claimed “bad boy” without **cough, cough** ❓”
We don’t have any “bad boys” on here. 🙂
“Our novel needs readers, right⁉️”
Not really. 🙂
“Then I chuckled, and the teacher (also my friend) also laughed, but she still would not answer his question…. The kid evidently didn’t understand why we both just 🤭 🤭. I marveled at young kids are so innately sensitive to a cultural “absurdity” and resisted a “brainwash”❗️”
That’s funny. Children have a way of cutting through all the crap and getting to the heart of the matter.
Lady Marcia,
“True.🙂 “
Let’s remember together that whatever other people want to be/do, or not to be/do, is really their business and only they can take a good of them; we can support or disengage. Meanwhile we focus on what to put in our body and mind… Next time, if you complain about other people again, I’ll your 🧠 🔨!
“It’s no so much that as my options are limited if I get sick and need help because I have so little family. “
I understand your genuine concerns. I’ve observed this country, many older people even with loving children still end up in a nursing home; 1) their children are too busy making their own living and caring for their own family. 2) Feeling useless, they don’t want to burden their grownup children; you don’t have the COO family system in which two generations help each other. Grandparents feel quite useful and stay younger when they help raise their grandchildren and get taken care of themselves meanwhile.
“Even if i get married, statistically speaking, I’ll probably outlive him. So I’ll be in the same boat. And then … I’ll have had to suffer through years of marriage … 🙂“
Marriage sounds so much of a hell to you⁉️ There are happy and successful marriage, why do you have such a pessimistic view on the marital tie? 🧐
“I believe that as well. People can change. “
If they don’t want to change, they still do; no one can help it. Everything is impermanent❗️
““With a coterie of older gentlemen callers”
Oh, No your ladyship
“What does that mean? Seek out younger men?”
That entire paragraph was joking, mocking my own nickname “babysnatcher” 🤭 They just wobbled behind my 👣, what was I supposed to do 😃❓
“I was just being realistic about my options. Although older men probably won’t be options when I’m older. When I’m 80, guys my age will probably be chasing after 50-year-olds. “
It’s very true. Men in their 80s still chase 40s or 50s women, to do what? Change diapers for them❓You see, women usually live longer than men, so if the couple don’t want to end up alone, they should respect this phenomenon, but women need to start young in their 30s~40s.
[We need to keep them around for fun… Just feed them with well-masked flattery — they need inexhaustible validation all the time…] “Ain’t that the truth. “
You’re a master of caring and tactful complimenter and look fantastic in mirror, there should NOT be problems for you to “snatch” a younger man for a long-term relationship, no? 🤔
“Your grandmother sounds fun. “
My Granny was such a character with her huge eyes bulging when she got upset (never lasted longer than 12 hours); she earnestly nagged and nagged but very warm, caring and fond of us and other kids as well (like a totally opposite of my mother). You wouldn’t really get scared of her. When we were older in holiday gatherings, my cousins and I just teased her to no end; she’s so tease-able 😂 She did NOT always know/understand that we were teasing her so would argue back to defend herself, or asked WHYs… then we laughed even more… 😂 😂 Then she giggled, calling us Naughty…
“I read an article about six middle-aged female friends ? buying a house together to eventually retire in together. Idk. There’s a big part of me that doesn’t believe it would actually happen. People would get distracted with family stuff.”
My neighbor, a woman lawyer who got married at 51 for the first time (commented, that only foreigners in America nowadays get married) with a German guy (a professor) who is 48. She told me (before she got married) that she and her middle-aged lady friends are forming a sisterhood bond for their retirement.
I don’t think you should worry so much about others’ family “distraction”. In this country, the “care” some grownups give their parents are chilly to my bones, especially in big cities and among wealthy folks. They stress so much on their own individualistic, burden-free lifestyle and only “pay attention” to their own kids. And those kids grow up and leave home, leaving their parents behind… with whom you can still bond.
“103?! Wow. How old was she when she passed?”
104, very peacefully with my parents. Two years later, my Dad left.
”I just wanted it to be clear: I hadn’t spent THAT much time on them. 🙂”
No, your ladyship 👒 👠 🍫 📣 You hadn’t paid too much attention or spent THAT much time on them.” 😚 ❗️
“What’s a “trip to the galaxy”? Sex? An fwb doesn’t really send me to the moon. Unless he’s an LO. “
You still give the power to the other side so much… It’s not about him/LO, it’s about you and for you! You drive your own MF, invigorating them, which means that they have to attractive enough, not necessary a LO. There is so much empower womanhood and female independence talk out there, then a lot of “strong” women don’t know what it truly means aside from competing in professional world….
”I didn’t say I never … er… got on the plane myself. It just doesn’t compare to riding on the plane with a partner. “
Again, I never said they’re the same. But if you encountered a non-LO lousy fwb, you’d end up more frustrated or fell in sleep in the middle of the flight😏 ❗️
“That’s exactly what I thought when I read mine. It’s the Individualist. The Sensitive, Introspective Type: Expressive, Dramatic, Self-Absorbed, and Temperamental. Ouch. That’s not all that flattering. “
😳 opps, sorry your ladyship … You’re destined to suffer a lot of emotional pains… 😢
“Have a great time! I bet you will. In looking at those clips you posted … he’s very talented. “
His voice is like from out of space‼️ I checked a couple of his fan’s YTV clips, he looks shy and very polite… but almost nothing in his eyes… He arrived here 3 days ago.
“We don’t have any “bad boys” on here. “
Your ladyship, I only quoted… earnestly showing my respect to others’ words… 😀 A truly wolf can’t end up in LwL ‼️… Still, a while ago, we got a lot of 💦 😭 “bad boys” 😭 💦 …. NO more **cough……cough……cough** no more ( 🐦🔥is in a teasing mood… 😸)
[Our novel needs readers, right] “Not really. “
Have a sense of humor, your ladyship‼️ the best and most inspirational past ALWAYS lies in “writing”itself, not the readers… A true writer ✍️ First and Far most for him/her Self, regardless how the whole galaxy would chuckle at it… 😁 Readership is a bonus.
“That’s funny. Children have a way of cutting through all the crap and getting to the heart of the matter.”
I would pay anything to keep children’s innocence and uncontaminated perception❗️
I have a tutoring session to go now, for a bright, curious 6 year old girl… I’m lucky.
I’m seated and relaxed now 😊
The show will begin in 6 minutes. 🎶
Regret I didn’t bring my bigger binocular, but a small one…
“Even if i get married, statistically speaking, I’ll probably outlive him. So I’ll be in the same boat. And then … I’ll have had to suffer through years of marriage … 🙂”
Marcia, (eavesdropping on your conversations, lol)
I saw a 2026 calendar at the store last night that had 12 months of anti-affirmation statements.
Two that stood out to me read, “I don’t have a welcome mat at my door, because I’m not a liar..”
The other one read, “If you find me offensive, then I suggest you quit finding me..” I said to myself, oh yeah thats totally the great Dame. Funny thing is though, I think the same way.. 😆
“When I’m 80, guys my age will probably be chasing after 50-year-olds.”
Ummm No, not me..
The 25-35s are probably still going to reign supreme.. 🥰😍
C’mon girl, you knew I was the exception.. If Bill Belichek can do it, so can MJ.. 😆🤣
“And your brother, as you well know … he’s on the other extreme. A complete himbo. 🙂”
Seriously? I’ve tried so much to be more considerate in my old age. You give me that little credit? What is wrong with you? 😆
Dimash show is indescribably fantastic!
1. https://youtube.com/shorts/_Mm_xRGkTmo?si=TiZLd7KglKKBBwJt — Love is not over yet [short]
The top news: his belt was broken after the above song. So his team threw him one, it didn’t quite fit but he sang a Michael Jackson’s song with it. After this song, he begged the audience, “I’m sorry, I still need a belt! “ reminding me the line — “a belt, a belt, my kingdom for a belt!” . So audience threw him two more belts, one finally worked — here is the clip 😂 😂
https://youtube.com/shorts/DSP-pfPQR-c?si=k3MnodyI_XULHVUW — belted on the stage! 🤭
2. https://youtube.com/shorts/vaG4sGSEZsc?si=GW1oGN3FmEsASYkG — S.O.S [short]
3. https://youtube.com/shorts/uLK6tjZ2E2s?si=2qpLuG3zVCwfYn9h —- he didn’t clean shave tonight…
Snow,
“I’m seated and relaxed now 😊The show will begin in 6 minutes. 🎶
Regret I didn’t bring my bigger binocular, but a small one…”
Yeah, he’s cute. I’d want to see him really close up with the BIG binoculars. 🙂
How was the show?
MJ, (eavesdropping on your conversations, lol)
I believe the message was just for me. Why are you jamming yourself in here?
““If you find me offensive, then I suggest you quit finding me..” I said to myself, oh yeah thats totally the great Dame. Funny thing is though, I think the same way.. 😆”
Do you think about me when you’re not on the site? Of course you do. 🙂
“C’mon girl, you knew I was the exception.. If Bill Belichek can do it, so can MJ.. 😆🤣”
One big reason. I’m sure you can figure it out. It starts with an M and ends with a Y.
“Seriously? I’ve tried so much to be more considerate in my old age. You give me that little credit? What is wrong with you? 😆”
How you know know I don’t like himbos? 🙂
1.
https://youtube.com/shorts/gpyOVfhcR_Y?si=ffU3JX0Ybjc05a5W
https://youtube.com/shorts/byk5AoV1w6c?si=J98zUeIhB6ndKQPx — love is not over yet.
2.
https://youtube.com/shorts/NgrJMgYqCBE?si=3GQCuVRMHlucdMQY — “still need a belt!”
3. Weary Swains —https://youtube.com/shorts/GuVqGqieWL4?si=rOw2es1hvjqLVumn
4.
https://youtube.com/shorts/shEq8BuN9Uo?si=dpjXi_yskknZwsht — his dance move
I didn’t fall sleep at all! I forgot about my dream until 2hour 22 minutes passed. The last hour the loud music finally gave me a headache…
Marcia, The seating near the stage could pay for your facelift.
He sings so hard and serious, could barely catch his breath after each song… he looks older and less feminine.
I totally want to be the chaperon on ya’ll’s first date. I’m just gonna sit back with my gin & juice and watch ya’ll fight all night, but then also be the chauffer that drops you two off somewhere while I wait in the car still sipping my gin & juice while I listen to Rose Pink Cadillac. Wondering what’s going on like the last time I went to pick up my son to change his battery in his car and I waited for 20 minutes before him and his lady friend finally came out of the house.
Oh behave!
🎩 🍺 , 💦 🦎
You two party crushers to 👯♀️ lady’s marathon gossip moments ! 🎊
If I weren’t taken away to out of the space by last night’s show, I’d kick 👠 you two to the ditcher of the World War I!
Now, when I was off a couple of hours, MJ hijacked away 👒 🍫 dame still without a return. 🎩 🥃: it’s your chivalrous duty to get her back soon for the Mooncake party tonight…
We say, “Happy Moon Festival” and give you a piece, just a piece of 🥮— you need to share! Without a bite of the mooncakes, you’d have a lot of heartbreak in the following year…
https://youtu.be/xozihffWZgc?si=1NDAGi-4JFtn62ld — the Legend of the Happy Mid-Autumn Festival:
The top priority is not to get LO or satisfy LE, but get Chang E’s elixir for immortality, so you can have infinite LEs:
But Chang E fled to the Moon and was granted a jade rabbit the Heaven’s Queen… That’s why all limerents around the world stared at 🌙 and sighed to the moon,🌖 whenever they fall in the spell of LE…
That’s why/how we bumped into each other here in LwL…
Typo: “was granted a jade rabbit BY the Heaven’s Queen…”
👒 👠 Marcia,
“Yeah, he’s cute. I’d want to see him really close up with the BIG binoculars. 🙂
How was the show?”
From my operatic binocular, I can see that his features are indeed handsome with definite double eyelid operation (from the big saqueen that spots every tiny irregulars on one’s face” ) his back hair is bit too short for my taste.
I got my big, ugly binocular ready but changed my mind at the last minute— I was going to listen to his magical voice, not seeing just the face.
Not only I could not focus on his face, but my whole being was taken to the outer space by his song , making me even to have forgot my dream for the first two hours…
Once it was remembered, I felt surreal— how on earth I could have dreamed of this stranger (the show is called “Stranger Tour”) and wrote some music together, it’s just just unbelievable! …
“Drained”, for the rest of the evening, I felt strange or surreal…
For all limerents in limerence —
🛐 “Oh, L🅾️, L🅾️! When are you coming off the 🌖 to say Hell🅾️❓”
https://youtu.be/Rx_wIzbYMtk?si=SjSytBrtQgDf-tO5 — Mid Autumn Festival (— Chinese Thanksgiving)
Snow,
I don’t know where you come up with this stuff, but you have a wide-range of ideas don’t you? 😆
Adam,
Mother Marcia is just playing hard to get. She knows. We’d have a great time. With you there, that would only add to the fun..
By the way, turn off the Rose Pink Cadillac when we get back, lol.. That’s a LO song and I might start crying in front of the Dame and it will get awkward..😁
Snow,
Concert tickets are expensive. It looks like your show was long. After I watched your video links, a bunch of other videos from the show popped up in my youtube feed. In one, he made reference to the show’s length. He looks very young.
MJ,
I don’t play hard to get. Not if I want to be gotten. 😀
Marcia,
Yes, he’s 31 and looks taller in person than in videos. His younger brother looks much smaller in the frame.
If the band were not so loud, my head probably would not get so full towards the 3rd hour. His voice could take over the whole place without too many music instruments, which occasionally sounded louder than his voice.
I guess for the picky urban crowds, he performed more rock-n-roll than Neo-classical songs, which I like more. He’s a very engaging performer.
He considers himself as Neo-classical with Rock, Pop, or whatever. He does not want to be classified in one genre.
I heard that you had a good time with one of your dudes❓🤭
Some 🥮 🥮 🥮 for you and your dudes and whoever trailing behind your 👠 .
Snow,
“Yes, he’s 31 and looks taller in person than in videos.”
That’s unusual. Celebrities usually look smaller in person.
“I guess for the picky urban crowds, he performed more rock-n-roll than Neo-classical songs, which I like more. He’s a very engaging performer.”
Does he write his own stuff or sing covers? What is the difference between rock-n-roll and Neoclassical?
“I heard that you had a good time with one of your dudes❓🤭”
I did? Was it so uneventful I don’t remember it? 🙂
“Next time, if you complain about other people again, I’ll your 🧠 🔨!”
Uh oh. 🙂
“you don’t have the COO family system in which two generations help each other. Grandparents feel quite useful and stay younger when they help raise their grandchildren and get taken care of themselves meanwhile.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the responsibility is spread over many family members ? Whereas in the U.S., if there are 3 kids, for example, one of them usually bears the burden of being the caregiver to an aging parent.
“Marriage sounds so much of a hell to you⁉️”
It doesn’t sound like hell, but spending almost all my free time with one person, day in and day out, for the rest of my days … That’s a lot.
“That entire paragraph was joking, mocking my own nickname “babysnatcher” 🤭 They just wobbled behind my 👣, what was I supposed to do 😃❓”
Enjoy their attention. 🙂
“It’s very true. Men in their 80s still chase 40s or 50s women, to do what?”
I don’t know. It seems a bit clueless to me. They might want it, but does it want them? 🙂
“You’re a master of caring and tactful complimenter and look fantastic in mirror, there should NOT be problems for you to “snatch” a younger man for a long-term relationship, no? 🤔”
Why would a younger man who may want children want to commit to an older woman?
“My Granny was such a character with her huge eyes bulging when she got upset (never lasted longer than 12 hours);”
She was your mother’s mother?
“My neighbor, a woman lawyer who got married at 51 for the first time (commented, that only foreigners in America nowadays get married) with a German guy (a professor) who is 48. She told me (before she got married) that she and her middle-aged lady friends are forming a sisterhood bond for their retirement.”
Right. But she found a husband. So plans for the sisterhood have been nixed.
“104, very peacefully with my parents. Two years later, my Dad left.”
I’m sorry. Sounds like you lost two people you really loved in a very short time.
“Again, I never said they’re the same. But if you encountered a non-LO lousy fwb, you’d end up more frustrated or fell in sleep in the middle of the flight😏 ❗️”
Yes, most definitely. I’d rather have nothing than have something I don’t really want.
“Your ladyship, I only quoted… earnestly showing my respect to others’ words… 😀 A truly wolf can’t end up in LwL ‼️… Still, a while ago, we got a lot of 💦 😭 “bad boys” 😭 💦 …. NO more **cough……cough……cough** no more ( 🐦🔥is in a teasing mood… 😸)”
When I think of “bad boy,” I think of someone who is very rebellious (against the establishment, society, etc.) and maybe a bit of a player. We don’t have anyone like that on here.
“A true writer ✍️ First and Far most for him/her Self, regardless how the whole galaxy would chuckle at it… 😁 Readership is a bonus.”
Exactly. We don’t need readers! And then a certain individual keeps jamming himself into our conversation DESPITE complaining about the length of our novels. So he is apparently reading them!! 🙂
MJ 💦 🦎
I’m so fond of your graphic screen name 🤭; every time I see a colorful emoji, my imagination goes wild… My “mother tongue” deals with pictographic every single day, if not every minute….
“I don’t know where you come up with this stuff, but you have a wide-range of ideas don’t you? 😆”
It’s called a MIND OUT of Limerence! Without that icky longing inhibiting brain cells’ synapse, it so freely imagines /expands only to edge of the galaxy.…
I’ve been trying to convince your Dame 👒 👠 how much lighter the brain feels without longing (not regular anxieties or fears), but she does not and cannot feel/know IT until she gets to that place.
You can ask anyone, who claims 100% limerence free, about how his/her mind feels or functions once LE and unexplainable longing are gone. If the root of his/her LE is still there or unknown, there would be another LE soon or later, I’m convinced.
By the way, nowadays, more than half of what I’m rambling here is teasing😈 , either teasing her ladyship’s dudes, or some ideas, or some phenomena… without ever aiming at any LE sufferers. So please don’t get upset if they sound a bit “out of the place”…. 😊
👒 Marcia 👠 ,
“That’s unusual. Celebrities usually look smaller in person.”
He’s 190cm tall with a slender build, smooth skin (half of Asian) His presence with his outfit commend the stage. You can’t escape or fall in sleep in his presence or voice if you were there. He sings with his soul‼️
“Does he write his own stuff or sing covers? What is the difference between rock-n-roll and Neoclassical? “
Nope. He’s not a singer-songwriter (except one total piece under his name), but incredible vocalist and musician (play piano and Kazakhstan music instruments, and sings in 14 languages). He played one (with a short film on its lengendary/ historical invention) yesterday, very impressive❗️”his true compositional talent is most vividly displayed in the intricate vocal arrangements and improvisations he brings to every performance.”
He works with established composers from Kazakhstan and around the world. Famous composers like Igor Krutoy and Kuan Kuan have written many of his signature songs. Last night Bruce Springfield was there, playing the piano to accompany the piece “Love is not over yet”. I have a blurry photo of them standing together to thank the audience.
Neoclassical is like opera singing, but not just opera pieces, but a lot of spiritual stuff with poetic languages. He sings them with 6 or less octaves. I posted them here throughout last two years, if you paid attention.
“I did? Was it so uneventful I don’t remember it? “
Oh, poor 😭 💦🦎…
[Next time, if you complain about other people again, I’ll your !] “Uh oh. 🙂”
Yes, in front of maximum 120, 000 ghosts!
“Correct me if I’m wrong, but the responsibility is spread over many family members ? “
Yes, siblings take turns to care for the aging parents, unless one of them insist on doing it the whole time, like my oldest uncle from Mother side. He did not trust his younger siblings able to do a good job. He’s like a saint! Never seen anyone kinder than he, his wife and their two unidentical boys ( but they’re boring to me, only smiling and agreeable to whatever Dad joked; they never added anything fun to the family gatherings).
“It doesn’t sound like hell, but spending almost all my free time with one person, day in and day out, for the rest of my days … That’s a lot. “
How do you know? Have you done so for an extended period of time? I’m a single child and since 4, I dreamed to have a sibling or a bosom (not necessarily sexual) friend to spend day out and night in. I can totally relaxed at ease (body and mind) in front of such a person. Of course, s/he has to be NOT BORING with an active, curious mind and limitless imaginations. No one can FIND such a harmonious connection, it can ONLY be built, in theory and in my imagination, through mutual, equal affection and effort (with initial Glimmer 6+)
[They just wobbled behind my 👠 , what was I supposed to do ⁉️] “Enjoy their attention. 🙂 “
Oh, no, your ladyship❗️Often such attention has its conscious or unconscious goal behind their fatty, plum cheeks: looking for another Mommy to take care of their met and unmet needs…. 🙄
“I don’t know. It seems a bit clueless to me. They might want it, but does it want them? “
I think they’re looking for some sensual fun as well as physical care. I’ve had one guitarist gentleman friend (still there waiting to take me out for lunch) two decades older. His physique is so hardened that I felt his hugs were going to crush my bones — painful literally! (I still kiss 💋 my big toes during my daily stretches…). I annually send him one greeting for the New Year.
“Why would a younger man who may want children want to commit to an older woman? “
What’s why I said it can only happen when the woman is in her 30s or 40s, and the young man in his 20s and 30s. Oh for some psychological reasons, the younger man just wants to be with this older woman; it’s rare, but not 🆎 impossible. (I read about a few cases with older couples without any children involved).
“She was your mother’s mother? “
No, Granny is my father’s mother. I barely know my mother’s mother who had 9 children, 17 or 18 grandchildren. I told you before that each kid helped take are of the next sibling until they all finished college.
“Right. But she found a husband. So plans for the sisterhood have been nixed. “
She said that her husband would probably die before her. She’s very pretty, very smart, extrovert, sociable, warm but superficial, nosy, and pushy. I tried to avoid her. Now, she moved to Boston to live with her husband.
“I’m sorry. Sounds like you lost two people you really loved in a very short time. “
As I said here before that 2015-2017 was my lowest time in spirit, enduring physical and mental depression. Then in 2017 Glimmer suddenly landed (for 8-9 months) and LE followed in 2018 right after Dad’s passing, I didn’t believe it could ever happen when one was so aimlessly drifting and sad…. But LE totally took my depression away and possibly“gave” me the Lymphoma and a suspected cancer…. Who knows❗️
“Yes, most definitely. I’d rather have nothing than have something I don’t really want.”
If you know how to do energy work, you don’t NEED another passenger to fly MFf to the Galaxy. Of course, with a lovable, ABLE partner/BP, it could be much better. …
“When I think of “bad boy,” I think of someone who is very rebellious (against the establishment, society, etc.) and maybe a bit of a player. We don’t have anyone like that on here. “
Based on your definition of “bad boy”, they can’t fall in limerence; they have somewhat clear goals — rebelling against something. Limerents? We’ve seen all sorts here… who all share one thing in common: looking for validation of some sort (from their LO, or 👻 👻 , or the whole world), consciously or unconsciously, without clear goals whatsoever.
“Exactly. We don’t need readers! “
No NEED for readers, but No need to reject them either. It’s a bonus whether they hate the novel or like it — the pebble casted ripples in the pond❗️
“And then a certain individual keeps jamming himself into our conversation DESPITE complaining about the length of our novels. So he is apparently reading them!! “
🤭 Only you took his complaints seriously, he’s slyly showing his affection for One and Only ladyship 👒 👠 🍫 , and her gossips with an ageless bird 🐦🔥…. 😊
With exams to grade, I won’t be able to sleep again… no time to go out staring at Mid-Autumn 🌕! I ate 🥮 today with my students, colleagues, and now I’m sick of it. Go to any grocery store in Chinatown, you’ll find some delicious 🥮 — try White Lotus Paste with one or two 🥚 yolk inside, it’s unlike any type of Western cakes❗️
Snow,
” Last night Bruce Springfield was there, playing the piano to accompany the piece “Love is not over yet”. ”
Bruce Springsteen ?
“Oh, poor 😭 💦🦎…”
I’m sure whoever you’re referring to will be fine. 🙂
“How do you know? Have you done so for an extended period of time? I’m a single child and since 4, I dreamed to have a sibling or a bosom (not necessarily sexual) friend to spend day out and night in.”
Having a friend you spend a lot of time with is different. Different expectations. Different kind of relationship than a spouse.
” looking for another Mommy to take care of their met and unmet needs…. 🙄”
Blech. A big turn off. 🙂
“I think they’re looking for some sensual fun as well as physical care. ”
Yes, but the women they want have to want them.
“I read about a few cases with older couples without any children involved.”
I guess if they don’t want kids. But it’s a risk for the woman as the expectations for women and aging and appearance are greater than for men. I can hear your arguments already …. don’t pay attention to societal expectations. Nobody completely removes themselves from them.
“No, Granny is my father’s mother. I barely know my mother’s mother who had 9 children, 17 or 18 grandchildren. I told you before that each kid helped take are of the next sibling until they all finished college.”
That isn’t their job. She robbed them of their childhood.
“But LE totally took my depression away and possibly “gave” me the Lymphoma and a suspected cancer…. ”
Why? Stress?
“Based on your definition of “bad boy”, they can’t fall in limerence; they have somewhat clear goals — rebelling against something.”
I’d have to think about that. I don’t know. I haven’t given it much thought. Just that it’s a type of guy you don’t meet in middle age.
“No NEED for readers, but No need to reject them either. ”
It wouldn’t matter if I rejected them. They’d still jam themselves into the conversation. 🙂
“he’s slyly showing his affection for One and Only ladyship 👒 👠 🍫 , and her gossips with an ageless bird 🐦🔥…. 😊”
Intermittently, yes.
👒 👠 Marcia,
“Bruce Springsteen ?
No, I made a mistake. It’s Walter Afanasieff, the composer of “Love is not over yet” — https://youtu.be/aVBYbmdNCsU?si=0RjaBMYP2z0de77k
He played the piano for him. His singing here is the best among all the previous recordings — I got goosebumps in the my seat… It was my favorite last year; Now after the concert, I can’t get the song out of my head.
Here is the only song he composed and wrote lyric for his Gran’s death or his sister’s wedding — https://youtu.be/VPFLlJoicD8?si=62X4-3vcsPQ-PLGA. The beautiful girl in the video is his sister.
[Oh, poor 😭 💦🦎…]
“I’m sure whoever you’re referring to will be fine. 🙂”
It’s your sticky dude… 🤭 But your scolding helped dry most of his tears, consider it as your ACHIEVEMENT! 👍
“Having a friend you spend a lot of time with is different. Different expectations. Different kind of relationship than a spouse.”
Well, in my childhood, I dreamt of this bosom buddy would share my bed, I guess I just desired a sibling without knowing what sex is. Later, I know I could never achieve this goal with a girl/woman. I might bas e unconsciously afraid that any woman would turn to be my cold, Narc Mother. In addition, most of girls/women I met were just too sissy, to my liking.
”Blech. A big turn off. 🙂”
Well, they often don’t know or search consciously. And if women are strong and very capable, the big hen type, those men even become “lazier” just leaning on their women. I watched some couples like that, especially in COO, and my xSO.
“Yes, but the women they want have to want them.”
Exactly. A lot of women looking for older gentlemen are after sugar Daddy, especially in a macho culture.
“I guess if they don’t want kids. But it’s a risk for the woman as the expectations for women and aging and appearance are greater than for men. I can hear your arguments already …. don’t pay attention to societal expectations. Nobody completely removes themselves from them.”
I am too tired to argue with you/anyone about anything. I said it’s very rare, like French president. A long while ago, I read a story with a photo, about a woman in her 80s (married 3~4 time), standing next to her latest hubby in his 60s. I only remember I was wondering what made her attractive to those younger men. (Forgot who was that 🤔 )
“That isn’t their job. She robbed them of their childhood.”
Please hold on your fast horse in judging other people’s lifestyle, especially on other parts of the world, where they did/do not have your kind of priviliage – material abundance and peace. That was during the war and brutal communism time. Have you learned some modern history about Russia, China, and North Korea?
“Why? Stress?”
Frequent anxiety and panic attacks caused on uncertainty and pull-n-push “games”, on top of my Hashimoto Thyroiditis immediately triggered by Dad’s death. Limerence is a not joking matter to those whose immune system is at its low.
LE can also weaken one’s immune system if one is constantly living under anxiety and stress. I don’t understand why you “promote” it in relationship you’re not in your 20s or 30s. We’re growing older not younger….
“I’d have to think about that. I don’t know. I haven’t given it much thought. Just that it’s a type of guy you don’t meet in middle age.”
Nope. The majority of the middle age men become complacent with this comfortable living. They probably also understand that an individual’s rebellion against a system might just be futile or would not bring them dreamt happiness.
“It wouldn’t matter if I rejected them. They’d still jam themselves into the conversation. 🙂”
That’s because you’re witty and funny, with a sharp mouth but a “big heart” as Mila points out. You also know how to culturally wipe dry of their “runny 👃” 🤭
“Intermittently, yes. “
Do you seriously expect they’d pour all their posts around your mini skirt❓Nowadays, I have little energy or interest left to chat around; the urging needs of “expressing” LE in the last two years has vanished… I wish you could get out of it completely soon…
Last night for the first time, I came by Johnny Depp’s younger photos (under 30), Holala, he’s indeed dashing and very sexy… then, he turned to such a rough looking that I could not even feel sorry for his divorce matter…
Typo:
“Frequent anxiety and panic attacks caused BY the uncertainty and pull-n-push “games”..
“ I might be unconsciously afraid that any woman would turn to be my cold, Narc Mother.” When they were soft and feminine, I felt uncomfortable or strange…
So tonight LO officially lost the house he was trying to buy on the other side of the country. He found out last week that he lost it, but tonight it’s official–the seller and the escrow company cut him loose, minus his hefty earnest money deposit.
I find I am mostly indifferent. I am experiencing some schadenfreude, but mostly indifferent. I watched from the sidelines as LO worked himself into a frenzy of excitement over a project that was inexplicable to me. He selfishly planned to drag his mother 3000 miles away to a freezing climate where she knows no one, and probably wouldn’t be able to go outside at all in the colder months. The rest of the family is here, and LO didn’t seem to care about separating her from her other children and grandchildren.
He was even going to try to transport his beloved koi fish. I just cringed.
Even though this obviously does not affect me personally, I was pained because all three of my adult daughters have moved out of state and have cut off contact with me. So this feels somewhat familiar, even though it’s not the same.
A friend of mine who is my age experienced something similar–years ago, she dragged HER elderly mother out of state, and everyone was miserable. She said, “I was only thinking of myself. I was selfish. We all hated the new place and moved back within two years.” Even twenty years later, she still feels terribly guilty.
I am grateful that LO’s family seems to have dodged a bullet, but my opinion of LO continues to slide downward.
Ultra Orator Spell
Soham Patel
I become the song I’ve been
singing alone in this field with you.
What deal did we make that leaps
so far behind both into the horizon
and from it? Some grim comfort
has come my way in the form
of an ox. The ox struggles to remain
in my consciousness, an unfounded
howl yearning to ring around
a ventriloquist’s echo. I’ve become
too busy for such nonsense, so I cast
it into the places where I retreat myself,
the ecstatic, gratitudinal rest and re-
storation of popular music. My goal
isn’t to unfold popular music once
more, rather it is to speak now to
how the animals say it better. Make
the nominal joy render justice. Make
a joke of nothing. Grade this remark
holding no reluctance today, only hope.
Poetry Is a Destructive Force
1879 –1955
That’s what misery is,
Nothing to have at heart.
It is to have or nothing.
It is a thing to have,
A lion, an ox in his breast,
To feel it breathing there.
Corazon, stout dog,
Young ox, bow-legged bear,
He tastes its blood, not spit.
He is like a man
In the body of a violent beast.
Its muscles are his own . . .
The lion sleeps in the sun.
Its nose is on its paws.
It can kill a man.
The ⬆️ poem is by
Wallace Stevens1879 –1955
The lion:
Calm down, Mr. Collins is not a man… Just enjoy the sun. 🌞
Just checking in. I have backslid, horribly. Again.
And I thought I was doing so well.
I’ll be looking forward to that Limmy nomination.
Oh no! What’s happened? Is it because you were all geared up for him moving away and now it’s definitely not happening?
I was feeling a bit of a backslide yesterday evening. I hadn’t seen him for about a month, and saw him briefly yesterday. I was annoyed with myself that even just an inconsequential, one-minute chat causes my emotions to be in turmoil, but I’m getting back to normal after re-reading this morning’s blog by Dr L, reminding myself that it’s just brain chemicals. Onwards and upwards.
To Miss Cloud:
Something unexpected happened. LO texted me a flirty message and called me “My brilliant prince.” I tried to laugh it off by saying, “If you think I’m a prince, we need to reevaluate our relationship.”
Well, then he sent back something even weirder, “In my heart you ARE my prince.”
I snapped back, “Are you sure you’re texting the right person??”
Then he wrote back, “Playing a game with a friend. Wrong page.”
Yeah, no kidding.
It was a harmless mistake on his part, but it ended up upsetting me terribly.
Just a reminder that he will never say those kinds of things to me because I am the wrong gender.
Oh that’s awful! So upsetting. It must be really hard to observe him being flirty with other people knowing that you’re forever out of that loop. He can’t know how hard that is for you, but even so, it’s so careless!
I will never tell him, either, because he would just fly off the handle.
And we were just having a conversation about the house he lost, and how others blame US for their own mistakes. That house deal was very do-able. Carelessness on the part of others caused it to fall apart.
Here he’d be blaming me for being upset at something HE did, so it’s better to say nothing. He understands it when he’s on the receiving end of the bad behavior from others, but is totally blind when he is the one doing it.
The River
Manuel José Othón
translated from the Spanish by Alice Stone Blackwell
With graceful waves, ye waters, frolic free;
Uplift your liquid songs, ye eddies bright,
And you, loquacious bubblings, day and night,
Hold converse with the wind and leaves in glee!
O’er the deep cut, ye jets, gush sportively.
And rend yourselves to foamy tatters white,
And dash on boulders curved and rocks upright,
Golconda’s pearls and diamonds rich to see!
I am your sire, the River. Lo, my hair
Is moonbeams pale: of yon cerulean sky
Mine eyes are mirrors, as I sweep along.
Of molten spray is my forehead fair;
Transparent mosses for my beard have I;
The laughter of the Naiads’ is my song.
El río
Soneto
Triscad, oh linfas, con la grácil onda,
gorgoritas, alzad vuestras canciones.
y vosotros, parleros borbollones,
dialogad con el viento y con la fronda.
Chorro garrulador, sobre la honda
cóncava quiebra, rómpete en jirones
y estrella contra riscos y peñones
tus diamantes y perlas de Golconda.
Soy vuestro padre el río. Mis cabellos
son de la luna pálidos destellos,
cristal mis ojos del cerúleo manto.
Es de musgo mi barba transparente,
ópalos desleídos son mi frente
y risa de las náyades mi canto.
A Nereid
Alexander Pushkin
translated from the Russian by Babette Deutsch and Avrahm Yarmolinsky
Among the glaucous waves that kiss gold Tauris’ beaches
I saw a Nereid, as dawn flushed heaven’s reaches.
I barely dared to breathe, hid in the olive trees,
While the young demigoddess rose above the seas;
Her young, her swan-white breast above the waters lifting,
From her soft hair she wrung the foam in garlands drifting.
****
Pushkin’s LO!
Dame Marcia
I’m sure I’ve said that I was raised in a very conservative and religious home before where premarital sex was a sin. Couple that with the 80’s/90’s paranoia of HIV, STD and unwanted pregnancy scares of society and I was more scared of sex than I was enthralled by it.
And technically I did have sex before marriage, it was just with my soon to be wife before we legally got married. And that was only because she initiated. I was absolutely intimidated. But in the end I gave her the best 90 seconds she’d ever had. 😂
I don’t judge my brother. Women are to him what alcohol is to me. Can’t get enough. I’ll have Negro Modella today (I need to get more booze delivered today anyway) in honor of my brother’s love of his Latina women and my love of my sista women in one beer.
Sir Adam,
“I was more scared of sex than I was enthralled by it.”
I understand. I was a late bloomer myself.
“But in the end I gave her the best 90 seconds she’d ever had. 😂”
Lol. Here’s a secret I’m sure you know by now … there’s a fine line between too little time and TOO MUCH. Sometimes you just want things to wrap up. 🙂
“I don’t judge my brother.”
I do. A woman wants a driver with a little mileage … not one who’s driven every car on the lot. Or every car that will allow him to drive. 🙂 In all seriousness, I’m not kidding. A little discretion is a good thing. A guy who doesn’t hook up with every woman who offers but picks you … that’s a compliment.
“I don’t judge my brother. Women are to him what alcohol is to me. Can’t get enough.”
Adam,
Thank you Brother. Always.
You’re one up on LF then and your support means a lot. I’ll make sure I have one later too. I’ve got Blue Moon and Sam Adams-Cherry Wheat, chilling right now. Will go great with the spare ribs I’m grilling. Too bad you and the Great Dame can’t stop by. Perfect Indian summer weather over here today..
Hi all,
I’m a first-time commenter- just found this site- and was hoping you could maybe help me figure out whether I’m experiencing limerence, love, very close friendship, or a crush with someone. I know what the definitions are for each, but in my case, due to a number of circumstances, it’s a bit complicated… OKAY, SO! Let’s call Maybe-LO E. E and I have known each other for a few years, and for a few months now, we’ve had quite a close friendship- previously, we were just friends, but now they’re my closest friend (and I’m theirs). I’d never entertained the notion of having any attraction to E, but recently, I suddenly found myself experiencing symptoms… and it may have started a bit prior to my actual realization. E is highly intelligent, an amazing writer, drawer, and singer, into all the same fandoms I am, roughly my age (think 15 or 16), nonbinary and asexual like me, witty, gorgeous (my exact type in enbys), kind, hilarious, and just generally awesome. I’ve found myself wanting to constantly be around them lately, and thinking of them obsessively- but not every single second, just maybe once or twice an hour?? I know they have some flaws, but despite that, I’m still very into them. We text every day, and when they don’t write me back, I feel stressed and upset. I’ve imagined our life together, because honestly, we’re so close- we share our deepest feelings and insecurities- that I could see us living together when we’re older. Always being close. But I don’t want to tell them I like them, because I don’t want to lose our friendship if they don’t like me back- and frankly, I’m all right just being friends with them. We’re both single- unlike me, E’s never dated anyone, and they’re questioning whether they’re aromantic. As an ace, touch-averse person, romance isn’t much different for me than close friendship. I just… I don’t know, I feel like honestly these symptoms could be a myriad of different things. I don’t really know what else to add here. I feel like I like their personality and interests and appearance and just everything about them. Is there anything I should mention that I’ve forgotten to? That makes a difference in the diagnosis? Maybe, but I can’t for the life of me think about it. So in conclusion, uh… Help!
To Whenitrains:
I would think it’s impossible to tell from the information you have provided.
My question to you is this. You seem to have a lovely, supportive friendship with this person. Why do you feel such a sense of urgency to pigeon-hole it?
I would just be grateful to have a fine friend. You’re both so young, and things can change over time. I would just give the relationship time to blossom and change, hopefully for the better in some fashion.
Good luck and I hope you keep posting.
That’s a good question- why do I want to know exactly what my feelings are towards E? I guess I just want to have some clarity and sense of understanding. I’ve always been the kind of person who prefers labels to vagueness, who fears the uncertainty of things like death and darkness, who reads spoilers for movies just because they need to know what happens. Is it curiosity, or is is it rigidity, a fixation on knowledge that stifles awe and mystery? I don’t really know. I think that if or once I determined my feelings, I wouldn’t change my behavior in any way; our relationship as it stands is perfectly fine. I just would like to have, if possible, answers, so I can understand how I feel, even if my actions and our relationship don’t require me to know the precise nature. Thank you for the response!
To Whenitrains:
Life is full of uncertainty. Your longing to know things is perfectly natural and universal–it’s our way of trying to have some control over things we don’t understand.
I would encourage you to let the answers come to you in their own time.
I myself am a pretty impatient person, but I have learned that you can’t rush some things.
🌞 👯♀️,
No bad dreams for me, but couldn’t help wake up over two hours ago…
I came upon this short film (no word) last night and seriously felt puzzled, what does it tries to say? (I couldn’t read the word on the piece of paper in her hand towards the end… ) —
The Clue — https://youtu.be/U9ASOd2iazo?si=QwCHAapaNK9BlXuT
******
You are going to hate me for this, but I think it might be relevant to you, me and some others who had family traumas —
The Psychology of Why Healthy Love Feels Wrong — https://youtu.be/ayNPYrcP6ZE?si=sZA7-3m7vmJZTtc4
🌞 👯♀️,
No bad dreams for me, but couldn’t help wake up over two hours ago…
I came upon this short film (no word) last night and felt somewhat puzzled, what does it try to say? (I couldn’t read the word well on the postcard/photo in her hand… ) —
The Clue — https://youtu.be/U9ASOd2iazo?si=QwCHAapaNK9BlXuT
******
You are going to hate me for this, but I think it might be relevant to you, me and some others who had family traumas —
The Psychology of Why Healthy Love Feels Wrong — https://youtu.be/ayNPYrcP6ZE?si=sZA7-3m7vmJZTtc4
I guess “the Clue” is saying that everyone is TREASURE, normally we don’t see it unless going through an adventure, then we can appreciate ourselves better, and only then everyday life is not going to be burning ever after❓
Is limerence our shared, involuntary “adventure”❓If truly out of it, do we feel more self-appreciative❓
😳: so cautious about omitting a “not” that I added a totally unnecessary one!
Perhaps a Freudian slip: “only then everyday life is going to be BRIGHT ever after❓
🙊 I must be a psychic, look what I just read 5 minutes after correcting all my Freudian slips in the previous post❓Or is it just Jungian synchronicity⁉️ — 🧐
******
The Burning Wheel
Aldous Huxley
Wearied of its own turning,
Distressed with its own busy restlessness,
Yearning to draw the circumferent pain—
The rim that is dizzy with speed—
To the motionless centre, there to rest,
The wheel must strain through agony
On agony contracting, returning
Into the core of steel.
And at last the wheel has rest, is still,
Shrunk to an adamant core,
Fulfilling its will in fixity.
But the yearning atoms, as they grind
Closer and closer, more and more
Fiercely together, beget
A flaming fire upward leaping,
Billowing out in a burning,
Passionate, fierce desire to find
The infinite calm of the mother’s breast.
And there the flame is a Christ-child sleeping,
Bright, tenderly radiant;
All bitterness lost in the infinite
Peace of the mother’s bosom.
But death comes creeping in a tide
Of slow oblivion, till the flame in fear
Wakes from the sleep of its quiet brightness
And burns with a darkening passion and pain,
Lest, all forgetting in quiet, it perish.
And as it burns and anguishes it quickens,
Begetting once again the wheel that yearns—
Sick with its speed—for the terrible stillness
Of the adamant core and the steel-hard chain.
And so once more
Shall the wheel revolve, till its anguish cease
In the iron anguish of fixity;
Till once again
Flame billows out to infinity,
Sinking to a sleep of brightness
In that vast oblivious peace.
World Below the Brine
Walt Whitman
1819 –1892
The world below the brine,
Forests at the bottom of the sea, the branches and leaves,
Sea-lettuce, vast lichens, strange flowers and seeds, the thick tangle, openings, and pink turf,
Different colors, pale gray and green, purple, white, and gold, the play of light through the water,
Dumb swimmers there among the rocks, coral, gluten, grass, rushes, and the aliment of the swimmers,
Sluggish existences grazing there suspended, or slowly crawling close to the bottom,
The sperm-whale at the surface blowing air and spray, or disporting with his flukes,
The leaden-eyed shark, the walrus, the turtle, the hairy sea-leopard, and the sting-ray,
Passions there, wars, pursuits, tribes, sight in those ocean-depths, breathing that thick-breathing air, as so many do,
The change thence to the sight here, and to the subtle air breathed by beings like us who walk this sphere,
The change onward from ours to that of beings who walk other spheres.
From Dimash’s show on October 5th evening —
https://imgur.com/a/GJVQJwx
I was out on the porch after church listening to music and I went back into the house to make a drink still wearing what I did to church.
“Dad you look like a cowboy.”
“That well may be but I don’t know a dam thing about being one.”
😂
https://imgur.com/a/JIScqd7
To Adam:
Do you aspire to be a cowboy? It does sound intriguing.
I do like men’s formal western wear. yes. Not so much an actual cowboy though. What I wore to church the other day was completely coincidence. I didn’t intend for a “western” look. I just threw it together because I hadn’t done the laundry yet. I guess living in the south has worn me down. If you told 20 something me, I’d like western wear one day he’d call you a liar lol But yeah I at some point will plan/put together a western themed outfit.
Hi Mila, LaR,
Thanks for checking on my whereabouts!
I’m still alive 😀
Not much to report from my side. NC remains.
I have been trying to regain more of my sense of self again.
And I’ve been away quite a bit which helps a lot and meeting new people gives me new interesting perspectives which I appreciate ( even if they are not exciting).
Getting out of my LE is still work in progress, but heading in the right direction.
Hi Imho,
I‘m a bit surprised that it’s complete NC, I thought there was a friendship possible in the future, you had these regular phone calls etc. Maybe I don’t remember it right. He just left work and never called or texted again? Wasn’t there some visit to your country of which he made some noises? Sorry, my memory isn’t working properly these days😅!
You don’t have to answer, of course, like always.
It’s anyway probably for the best? Me, I feel that it‘s on some level sad, but actually necessary and good for me that contact to my XLO is much reduced, that I hardly see him any more and the friendship cooled somewhat.
Maybe it’s necessary and ultimately good for you, your life, family and self- esteem that there’s NC now. Also, he didn’t die and is still somewhere to be met in the future, should you wish to at some limerence- free point (meaning, when you could leave or take contact because it’s not that important anymore;).
I hope your life is good- sounds exciting to me, traveling, meeting new people… hope at home everything’s well too.
😘
Hi Mila,
You are spot on with your recollection of my story ( or “on spot ” as I remember you used to say).
Yes I’m a bit surprised too that he hasn’t connected. Although I don’t believe he has been in contact with many others from work either.
I may be one part of his life that he now wants to close a chapter on.
Also I have a theory that the main form of communication we had, via the work platform has stopped and
I don’t think he wants my name flashing on his phone or frequenting his contact list that he may have to explain to his SO, that he didn’t before.
That makes it seem a bit underground doesn’t it ? (Unlike your genuine xLO friendship)
His trip to my country will not happen this year, so no need for me to get all worked up about that. And you are right he is indeed not dead and maybe in the future we will meet again. For now I am trying to put my focus elsewhere. Reducing my feelings and thoughts of him is still challenging.
Glad you are okay, if somewhat sad and still rebalancing your feelings to your xLO friend. I am sure the pendulum will eventually rest in the right place after over-swinging in both overly positive and negative directions.
😘
Hi Imho,
„I may be one part of his life that he now wants to close a chapter on.“
That could well be, for several reasons. I had the impression that he went with some kind of bad feelings or trouble, or something was difficult about the situation? Maybe he throws the whole time and place of his life in the same pot (no idea if that’s English😂), or maybe he feels the same like you, that it’s better not to walk further on this way as it might get dangerous. Who knows.
Your imagery of the pendulum is absolutely on spot and spot on, I think the amplitude of the swing gets smaller and smaller. We are getting a bit warmer again, he‘s quite consistent in initiating (after much more time of nc than in the past)I gave him some support for a challenge he‘s on at the moment etc, all cordial and basically ok. I still have irritated reactions on some texts and stuff, which reminds me to keep my distance. We‘ll manage at some point. The important thing is, it gets further and further into the background and doesn’t impact my mood or daily life any more.
I wish you the same, and maybe one day, if this visit will ever happen, you‘ll be able to have a coffee with nothing more than affectionate memories, and it won’t bother you if that coffee really happens or not.
I think, with the right frame of mind, mind frame? time is indeed the great healer.
😘😘
Mila,
“Maybe he throws the whole time and place of his life in the same pot…” or “it’s better not to walk further on this way as it might get dangerous.”
Yes. You summarised it all better than I did.
I miss him. And I have had a sense of grief. I try not to wonder on his feelings.
Glad to read you are in a good place with no impact on daily mood or mindset. I love that you will get there with XLO and you can defy the odds of being able to get rid of limerence with friendship in tact, even if a different dynamic than before.
Friendship dynamics change over time regardless.
Let me know when you get there and we can announce the final scoreline between Mila and Limerence, like they do on football matches.
I read you are busy. Good busy I hope. Thanks for taking the time to reply to me, as always I appreciate it.
😘😘
How could I forget to add these ?! Ha ha !
Hi Imho and everyone,
sorry I‘m so very late in replying. Everything so busy, and posts were building up, I couldn’t follow any more. I guess it’s a good sign that I’m not that involved here any more.
„I miss him. And I have had a sense of grief. I try not to wonder on his feelings.“
That’s so necessary, I mean the missing and grieving. At least I think it is.
I still miss my LO2 sometimes at work,but I don’t seem to be the only one, just yesterday someone said wistfully „(LO2‘s name) surely would have made some hilarious remark now“.
There‘s always a real human behind the fantasy LO, and sometimes I miss the fantasy which might mean miss my own feelings (Hamlet? Was it you who said you recognized after 35 years that we make up our LOs/LEs by ourselves? That’s very true in that this person I got limerent for, doesn’t exist at all as this wonderful perfect person, I made that one up. But there’s still a human being somewhere behind this fantasy), and sometimes I simply miss the real person.
I vaguely recall that some of you (LaR, Bewitched?) with work LOs like mine said their LE might have masked a deficit at work and after the LE they realized they had to change something?
I cannot say that this was the case with me. Two of them were fantastic colleagues and are missed by everyone, but without them work is still pretty much the same, I do love my job, it didn’t have anything to do with enhancing an otherwise drab work environment. So that’s no excuse for me..
Not sure if I manage to catch up on posts, but I send hugs to everyone here and these for Imho 😘😘😘
Hi Mila,
Is my reply even later ?!
It is hard to keep on top on LwL comments without being obsessive.
I was just doing a quick search on my name and saw your post and hug. Thank you ! And also further down I see that Bewitched gave us a group hug too.
How nice is that to read. I always find much comfort and good insights from you both. Maybe especially as the seasons change, there is a shift that has a sense of sadness as things cool, slow down and withdraw.
Hugs always help.
🤗🤗
Hi both,
Imho, it’s good to still hear from you here occasionally and also good to know you’ve been getting away to meet new people, get new perspectives and keep moving on down recovery road.
I think it’s expected and par for the course that it will be work in progress to put him out of your mind, especially given the feeling of ‘incompleteness’ around it in your situation, if that’s the right word.
I’m finding that being freer of the relentless LO intrusion in my head is very welcome. But at times it also leaves things feeling a bit grey and drab at work. The best way to put it is that I’m going through much the same cycle and events of the work year as in the last two years, but minus the limerent ‘rewards’ rocket-fuelling it all (with her still there – things cordial, but much cooled off).
I guess to spin all this into much more of a positive, it might – in the end – lead me to a purposeful decision to seek a bit of a change of direction at work (don’t worry though, I will still drive my 🚜 for these purposes). The LE/LO masked how drab some of my work was, and the need for a decision – maybe conveniently at the time. I’ll keep you posted if that goes anywhere.
Keep going!
Glad to hear you’re not suffering the intrusive thoughts as much.
My progress halted again yesterday (although hopefully not too much of a regression).
Her general absenting from her previous active presence at work means I hardly see her and she absolutely doesn’t engage with me directly at all.
But we were both in a small online/remote meeting yesterday and my limerent, devil brain couldn’t help but look for any kind of acknowledgement. None was forthcoming of course.
These encounters are inevitable, but very rare so it’s hard to feel I’ve made any real progress normalising the situation. Combined with the sense that she is actively pushing me away, and almost resents me, seeing her just makes me feel incredibly low.
Others, as I have said, have offered reassurance, based on her general conduct – “it’s not just you!” – but it’s so hard not to take it personally, given how particularly close we were.
So I suppose this remains the big challenge of the NC/LC principle. If contact *is* inevitable, what exactly can I do to protect myself, and make genuine progress, if every experience is so upsetting?
It’s such a quandary.
Hi Phil,
It can sometimes be hard to find parallels in our situations …
because you have been pushed out of your reverie against your will by the change in your LO’s circumstances and behaviour, while I have been working on pulling myself out unforced by the other side (and with the LO still ‘on tap’, just that I have now built a more realistic picture of her gradually where the ‘on tap’ is less affecting).
For you, I’d try to savour the NC or LC and gradually work on seeing that as not a burden, but as liberation from anxiety. This will take time plus the work you’re already doing on yourself.
When contact is a must, I guess the most helpful mantra I can offer is that you can’t control what she does, only what you do and how you react. It sounds like her ostracising of people goes way beyond you. So just play it as professionally as you can and need to, and find ways to get out the frustration when not around her.
Again the trick is to turn the frustration into liberation. I am only probably 50% there with that – the pendulum still swings, but it is more bearable. Time and patience is needed but it seems you’re doing lots to get your head in the right place.
LaR,
Thank you for the encouraging words and sharing a bit where you are at.
It is similar for me in terms of less LO intrusive thoughts is a good thing, yet dull.
I now have lack of ‘news’ and ‘content’ that puts him in a kind of frozen state.
And also work being on the same cycle. This. The LE excitement probably masked the repetitiveness. He also helped with my confidence and someone to trust too. Now he is gone I am struggling to stay focused with a sprinkling of mid-life outlook to exacerbate that too. Trying not to turn into an aging cynic.
It takes some bravery to make a step change though. Maybe that is what is needed for you too, with or without 🚜🚜🚜 !
I think even small changes in one’s life, place or routine can be very positive in gaining perspective and reducing ruminations on that one person in a world of 8 Billion.
💃🏻
Imho💃,
Bravo to making changes and expanding horizons when that feels right.
“Trying not to turn into an aging cynic.”
I conceded that battle years ago 🤦♂️
“He also helped with my confidence and someone to trust too.”
Every bit of that is so true of me too. She helped me through a truly bleak spell at work, and bits outside, before the LE was even a thing. Even now, I believe her actions then were genuine and without agenda – it was my brain that then took it and created the ‘agenda’.
Sometimes I felt twice the person at work when we teamed up as a duo. But it is helpful now to try and flip that on its head and see another angle – I also don’t want to become seen as ‘half a person’ there. I can go on and achieve stuff by myself now. And so can you.
But I know it’s truly a minefield to get out when the person has been good to you and helped you better yourself. Stay patient with yourself there 🫂
Dear Imho, LaR and Mila,
I have been following your chat with interest. Its really great to hear that the (x)LO obsessions have calmed (almost) completely and that Mila and LaR are able to bring an evenness to your interactions with xLO, finding the balance of appreciating them without compromising yourselves and your wellbeing. Imho, I sympathise that your LO is out of contact and that presents unique challenges for you. I can only imagine that you feel better, calmer and still there is a giant question over what you’ll do it he does get back into contact.
The mentions of how work (and life?) is just a bit unexciting and drab now without LO reward also resonate. All our (x)LOs were work-related. One might even wonder whether the jobs caused us to require self-medication 🤔.
I just wanted to offer some hope to say that I think I am getting out of my drab phase – I referred to it as ‘beige’ and ‘grey’ in some of my posts. I so recognise that feeling where the joy is gone down a bit, along with the rationalising that at least your not in the bad place you were. But drab and grey is not exactly fun. I do believe that this is a natural backswing on the recovery pendulum and that full recovery without experiencing the grey just takes time. I am out of that ‘grey’ now myself and am feeling content. Still have warm feelings for my LO, still have contact with him but I hardly think about him, really. That whole process took me 4 years!!
I think that working on yourself and other people in your life (including friends) is an important replacement activity that brings the joy. Well, it was for me, but I can imagine how a new work project that brings you into contact with a team, or a personal goal, could have the same effect. I hesitate to say ‘purposeful living’ because although that’s undoubtedly true, it always seemed far too out of reach! Like, I am not gonna start a blog to revolutionise research and public understanding of Limerence, like Dr L did. My goals are smaller – but – I think that small tiny goals also work 🧐🧐🧐. Especially when used with a large dollop of time to soothe and ease our way along. Reducing exposure or cutting down any negative aspects of your life, might also be more relevant for some of us. The brilliant thing about getting your brain and focus back is that there is a bit of energy released for new thoughts and actions.
Sending a group hug
🤗🤗🤗🤗
My dear 🐝 🧙♀️ “Mom de LwL”, (💃, 🔥 🍊 🍷, 🎩 🚜 )
Would you allow me to jam in just a tiny bit so I can congratulate your progress in erasing your “gray” more⁉️ 🫂
“Reducing exposure or cutting down any negative aspects of your life, might also be more relevant for some of us. “
Negative aspects of life are relevant to all of us, whether in or out of limerence, it’s a nature of living in any given period of life. Sometimes, it’s impossible to cut them out although exposure to them could be reduced when one tries with will. My point is that we mentally should actively prepare and calmly accept that dark shadows of some sort will always present in life, because there ARE bright lights in our life, if the mind could pay attention to them.
“The brilliant thing about getting your brain and focus back is that there is a bit of energy released for new thoughts and actions.”
I’m so glad to hear that you’ve got more mental space/energy back for “new thoughts and actions”, which I have certainly experienced, after limerence and that longing are gone. Even without much efforts, new thoughts, imaginations, visions would just naturally come (sometimes flood) in, like a new born spiritually.
I strongly agree with you that steady new actions, big or small, will help fill brighter colors in the newly released mental and emotional space and expand it to somewhere one might have not thought about or envisioned.
To me, the past feels like in my last life, becoming so remote and hazy…. There is no pain but memory of warms and of my “reasonable” LE follies…
💃, 🔥 🍑 🍷, 🚜,
I hope and know you will all have your crystal clear mind back, it’ll take some time to completely clear up the LE fog, keep a faith and keep going forward❗️
I’ve been quite busy with the load of work and with that “energy ball” of INFP 👯♀️ (and her dudes), but I have been an 👂 to your progresses. 😀
Thank Dr L, LwL has been my Saver!
Dear ❄️,
“Would you allow me to jam in just a tiny bit so I can congratulate your progress in erasing your “gray” more⁉️ 🫂”
Of course I would! I am very glad to touch base with you after so many weeks – although I do enjoy reading your posts. I am mainly quiet these days because I have so little ‘news’ to add.
When I said this:
“Reducing exposure or cutting down any negative aspects of your life, might also be more relevant for some of us”, I suppose I meant the negative self talk and self judgement, as well as negativity about others. A few of us might also have negative situations that we feel we cannot break free from, though these can sometimes be addressed or support sought out to make them easier to bear. I am thinking about mid-life burdens of frail parents, or children with extra needs, here. But maybe if someone was in a bad relationship, its also true that they have more agency than they think, and might just need to believe in their ability to make changes (including working on their relationship). Work is another thing that can be tweaked – I was in a bit of a rut at work and I needed to change that. I’m still in the same job but with a different focus. I am taking on new challenges and working with people who inspire me.
“Negative aspects of life are relevant to all of us, whether in or out of limerence …..Sometimes, it’s impossible to cut them out although exposure to them could be reduced when one tries with will. My point is that we mentally should actively prepare and calmly accept that dark shadows of some sort will always present in life, because there ARE bright lights in our life, if the mind could pay attention to them”
Your stoic philosophy is serving you well, Snow, it’s working perfectly for you 👏👏👏
As someone who suffers a bit of anxiety and tends to catastrophise, I have a saying, which is “don’t meet trouble half-way”. In other words, I try to avoid thinking negatively at all – when some knock-back comes to me, I will deal with it 😉
I’m so glad to hear that you’re feeling good – and to read that you are so well. You and I have both come a long way ❄️🧙♀️ ❄️😘
Hi Bewitched,
Great to hear from you. Everything does seem to be moving in such positive directions for you and that’s very good to know 🎉.
There’s always a lot in what you say to take positivity from. This time it is especially encouraging to hear you say that the grey/beige/[insert other dull colour] is abating more and more, and that even small actions and changes in work and life are leading to bigger positive upturns in how you feel. These serve as good reminders.
Also good to keep hearing is your emphasis on the usefulness of patience and time. Because you are – and have been for a long while – many months, maybe even a year plus, ahead of me in LE recovery, a lot of your experiences of what comes next down the road have played out similarly for me after more time.
I’m still foraging around in the grey and beige but noticing more moments of clarity where I can see more what I want to work towards next in life. The next bit is to keep noticing them and convert more of it from ideas into actions. It is held back as ever by lack of time and by uncontrollables (some more temporary than others) – but no longer being dragged further back by LO/LE in any big way, so I’ll take it 🥂.
Keep walking your path – it sounds a good one 🙂
Dear LaR,
Its the little things that bring the joy. Like the Author Kurt Vonnegut on telling his wife he’s going out to buy an envelope:
“”Oh, she says well, you’re not a poor man. You know, why don’t you go online and buy a hundred envelopes and put them in the closet?” And so I pretend not to hear her. And go out to get an envelope because I’m going to have a hell of a good time in the process of buying one envelope. I meet a lot of people. And, see some great looking babes. And a fire engine goes by. And I give them the thumbs up. And, and ask a woman what kind of dog that is. And, and I don’t know. The moral of the story is, is we’re here on Earth to fart around. And, of course, the computers will do us out of that. And, what the computer people don’t realize, or they don’t care, is we’re dancing animals.”
‘…see some great looking babies’ 😆. Where is Limerent Emeritus who’s favourite author this is (👋)?
But yes, little things, and I do believe that it definitely gets easier with time. I read an article that said people are happier when they do something for someone else rather than themself, which points to the importance of social life and social connections. Despite being an introvert, I am trying to improve this myself, and not be such a slave to work and life’s many demands.
Have a lovely weekend.
🐝 🧙♀️,
Author Kurt Vonnegut‘s story of buying stamps just illustrates a couple of things —
1. Stoicism: it’s not events themselves, but one’s reaction towards them matters in one’s mind and thus in one’s life.
2. A process matters more than its outcome, enjoy the journey to get to destination (whether you can get there or not).
3. Art initiates and beautifies life: what one creates in one’s mind (towards the same event of buying stamps in person) brings beauty to events, even doing laundry.
“What thoughts to put into one’s mind decides quality of one’s life” — M. Aurelius
Adjust or create one’s own mind (towards the world or people), one changes or enchants one’s life — the color of one’s inner world regardless of outer world; it’s an art of living with color of grey, black, and a rainbow of countless hues…
I forgot who has said that Art can save and create life.
Dear 🐝 🧙♀️ 🐔,
Every time I speak with you, I feel like a 🐣 around 🐔 ❗️you’ll have to bear with my emojis 😃)!
I didn’t have enough time to thoughtfully respond to your last inspiring message, with a plumber knocking a big hole on my wall to search for a possible leak for another apartment in the basement, and 3 private tutoring to rush to — had to meet two new private, adult male pupils…. Hasn’t ranked their glimmer yet with my INFP 👯♀️ — that’s a designated topic with her 🤭
But such a wait has proven to be more worthwhile, I’ve got a bigger news to tell you (related to what we talked about yesterday— Stoicism; Synchronicity again!): I’m ready to believe in God or Buddha or whichever deity who must be watching over me‼️
Yesterday evening right after a tutoring session at a gay couple’s home, I rushed (walking 17 blocks) for another session. When I got there, I realized I lost my glasses — given by my father 10 years ago and I got a new rosy frame for them a couple of months ago; they travelled with me all over the world! I remembered I was putting them in my crowded bag (I don’t carry purse at all). My student texted me saying he did not find it anywhere.
After the class, I decided to trace back my route step by step to see if they fell somewhere on the side walk (they were in a pale peach case). The two students could not believe I’d do it, but I said I’d give it try so I’d never regret not to make an effort! By 8pm after over 18000 steps (I had two earlier appts. walking all over the city under beautiful sun and chill weather), I was exhausted with only 0.1% of hope; but it’s something irreplaceable to be given up❗️
I passed the site of Dimash’s show, the famous square, and bumped into so many tourists and loud street shows at the square . When I wasn’t sure which side I walked, I just went back and forth on both sides of the street. I went all the way to the outdoor of the gay couple’s residence. Nothing on the side walk or flat tops of gigantic metal trash cans. You can imagine my mood!😞
By that time, the only thing I could do is to think about my Stoicism 😞 I thought I was jinxed by chatting with you about Stoicism earlier in the morning. Only this time I had not prepared for such a huge loss in advance! I felt the dark evening getting darker and chiller ready to swallow me in…
On the chilly sidewalk with white steams coming out of manhole and with 0% hope, I made a vow — if I can find my glasses, I’d believe in God❗️
My whole body ached like all the bones are going to scatter after I finally got home, so I soaked myself in a scented hot bath, and the aches did go away a lot. But I still had a massy, broken dreams like in a horror movie…. “Superstitious” as I am 🧐, upon waking, I thought a bad karma had finally caught me… I dropped you a short dry note, in an attempt to remind myself Stoicism for whatever luck is waiting for me❗️
Then the regular repairman of our building (a bony father in his 40s always wearing low cut, loose pants showing almost half of his underwear and a bit of the ditch whenever bending down… No ✏️ ✏️ dropping ever needed 😂 ! I should send him to my 👯♀️ for all her household troubles 😃 ), was very rude (he was habitually grumpy but his immigrant assistants were all very nice).
We got into a loud argument with each other( with a nice assistant present) in the hallway after he knocked upon a big hole in my bathroom, and then by accident I locked him inside a massive hoarder’s apartment directly above me 😆 (the Lock was broken). I was surprised that I could argue so loudly in public — a result of longing free 😊‼️. I was going to call our landlord to complain after my 3 classes; but the tiredness made me doze off in my sofa chair.
At 6:02pm, guess what happened⁉️— two pictures beeped on my phone, “Are these your glasses? I found them in the hallway of my apartment” — the only place I did not trace back last evening‼️ Immediately I texted my student back, “now, I’m going to LOVE THE WHOLE world!” My 🐝 🧙♀️ 🐔, I CANNOT believe my luck‼️ I JUST can’t BELIEVE my LUCK – 😁 — Whenever I gave up something Completely (happened in the past), the galaxy 🌌 would send back whatever I wanted so badly… ‼️
Now back to your previous post —
“I suppose I meant the negative self talk and self judgement, as well as negativity about others. A few of us might also have negative situations that we feel we cannot break free from, though these can sometimes be addressed or support sought out to make them easier to bear.”
In my opinion, the negative self talk/judgment is the worst❗️ Almost no limerent could be spared from it during LE. Once we fall into a crush, infatuation, and limerence, all sorts of self judgments begin no matter how confident we were beforehand. In front of LO, some of us feel like a “mouse in front of a CAT” metaphorically with no reasons whatsoever. I can sense it from many posts here, in some kind of disguise.
In hindsight, I could so clearly see my own nervousness /fear, which further worsened my thyroid/immune system back then. Even studied Stoicism (after summer of 2019), I still got anxiety and smaller panic-attacks — fearing the perceived sense of abandonment. Not in the shoes of a limerent with SO, I don’t know how you guys can make those, conscious or unconscious, negative self talk/judgement to go away, when some of you have a good SO “pampering” or “worshiping” you at home.
“I am thinking about mid-life burdens of frail parents, or children with extra needs, here. “
In this arena, none of us can escape, particularly a single child like 💦 🦎 and myself; Stoicism works well with me here. I’m lucky enough that Mom is still totally independent and very disciplined in maintaining her own health. I’m mentally prepared that sooner or later, I’d have to care for her in some capacities; however, I’m not bothered by it at all. There will be a way to cross the bridge when I get to there.
“maybe if someone was in a bad relationship, its also true that they have more agency than they think, and might just need to believe in their ability to make changes (including working on their relationship). “
There is a wish/wish, there is way, not just in theory❗️ Again, I’m not in your (universal) shoes, I could only imagine with little realistic ideas/methods. Despite of some praises for LO, I think LO is in the hindrance for partnered Limerents making substantial changes — emotional, spiritual, and psychological.
“Work is another thing that can be tweaked – I was in a bit of a rut at work and I needed to change that. I’m still in the same job but with a different focus. I am taking on new challenges and working with people who inspire me. “
Growing up in COO and with newly acquired Stoic knowledge, working aspect of my life bothers me less and becomes more “fun” — score their glimmer and intelligence. I’d do something fun (listen to music and watch mini series), challenging (talk/tango with 👻 👻), creative (imaging impossible but ideal stuff) to balance off dull/boring work.
“Your stoic philosophy is serving you well, Snow, it’s working perfectly for you”.
It’s working better and better in terms of dealing with and caring about both negative or positive opinions of others — they can NO LONGER make me feel “smaller/worse” or “bigger/better”. But my acceptence of my light and shadow, beneficial actions (to myself and possibly others) matters to me, in which, imagination/envision could/would work, with my logical mind intact and frequent meditation, and without taking any drugs or alcohol (but a bit of dark chocolate).
There is one thing in Stoicism I found harder to follow: indifference! I can feel indifference (cold or warm) to others’ mind, but I cannot feel indifference to my own positive thoughts and giddy moods 😃, so I indulge or show them while interacting with others, which sometimes puzzled them.
“As someone who suffers a bit of anxiety and tends to catastrophise, I have a saying, which is “don’t meet trouble half-way”. In other words, I try to avoid thinking negatively at all – when some knock-back comes to me, I wiersll deal with it.”
I agree with your philosophy like I discussed with my INFP 👯♀️ . I used to be catastrophic (less than my Mom); but after getting into Stoicism, I actually got rid of fears/worries. To prepare the worst just means that one rationally assess situations/people from all possible angles and tell the mind: any of these possibilities can happen at any given time; don’t be surprised when it comes. Then do not dwell on those possibilities but make steady steps to achieve/reach goals without hesitations.
I did trace my tired steps back last night to look for my glasses and did not reach my goal. Less than 24 hours a 🌬️ granted my wish 🍀
Typo: “ I can feel indifference (cold or warm) to others’ behaviors, but I cannot feel indifference to my idealized envisions thoughts and giddy moods 😃 “
Imaginative ramblings about the whole universe, not daydream or reverie about LO, can both positively and negatively affect one’s psychology, as long as one is logically CLEAR that they’re just envisions and don’t put hopes on them…. 😊
Dear ❄️,
That’s a wonderful story, I was both laughing and shocked while reading it. I really feel for you, having to spend hours retracing your steps all over town while thinking that your rosy glasses might be gone forever. I recall a situation where I once lost something at a very inconvenient time. Like you, I also had a religious moment, where I half-bargained with God and St Anthony (patron saint of lost things 😂) to relocate my lost keys. I also crept along a frozen street late at night. The keys turned up but the religious gratitude passed. I was soon back to my usual agnostic self….
But while my story was just about some keys, your memento is far more valuable. Maybe the feeling of God and karma smiling down will last longer for you (or maybe the story has more meaning for you??). Anyway, thank goodness (or God) for a disaster averted.
Have a lovely weekend
🐔x
🐝 🧙♀️,
Now, you truly KNOW how I felt two evenings ago, and I’m still in a deep AWE of this semi-religious event — I was convinced for 22 hours that my rosy glasses were Gone With Wind ‼️ (My student didn’t locate them right away either) .
I also thought that I was given a BIG test on the SAME day (10/9) after I spoke with you about Stoicism and applied it immediately afterwards…. This pair of old glasses given by Father metaphorically means spiritual lens through which I could see and gain some insight/envision/faith about life, my small but meaningful life❗️ Dad was an optimistic and humorous Stoic without ever knowing the word and its concept.
Also on Thursday, my mood had not come out from the spiritual journey ignited by Dimash’s heaven-shaking singing 🎶 — the sensations and unspeakable emotions I could not gain through any digital recording of his songs. So originally I also thought the universe was “punishing” me for going off the reality again and hopping on some “mystic” journey induced only by merely 🎼 🤔
I still haven’t come out of my mystic journey with my unbelievable luck, but had a short but very peaceful sleep (3-8am) last night after chatting with you, I woke up with such a calm chest, 👁️ everything ahead of me would be alright…
A lovely weekend to YOU, 🐝 🧙♀️ 💕 🫂. Monday here is a holiday, three days with NO work❗️🎶 💃
To Imho:
Good to hear you’re doing so well.
You are an inspiration to me.
Thank you Norma. However, I am probably not the best example here of letting go!
I hope your procedures went well today.
To IMHO:
They cancelled and I am seriously frustrated.
I’m not really sure why I’m commenting tonight except to say I broke no contact with LO #3 the weekend before last. I saw her at an event I thought she might be at but wasn’t sure. It was lovely to see her, but it did set me back on my recovery a bit. It was a bit of a mixed bag in terms of her reaction – hot and cold behaviour as is often the case with her. She did give me a hug and mentioned how she hadn’t seen me for ages. We talked away for quite a while and got along really well. I got her laughing quite a bit. But then she had to ruin it by moving across the table because she couldn’t see the band and her neck was sore. I know she loves the band that was coming on, and she had her back to them, so she did have a good excuse, but she could have asked me to move along with her.
There is that whole thing where she said to me over a year ago that she wouldn’t do anything to lead me on (after I talked about being married and she mistakenly thought I was saying, “Hands off, I’m married,” when all I was really saying was, “Don’t worry; I’m married so I’m not going to hit on you.”). At the time, I thought my friend had tried to set her up with me or something ridiculous like that (he hadn’t). I think that does impact our interaction to this day and makes things a bit awkward in some ways even if we do get along very well. I really want to say to her, “I just want to be friends, but I don’t want to be friendzoned.” The implication is I want to just be friendly and keep it light, but if and when my marital situation changes I would definitely be interested in asking her on a date. She must know I’m really attracted to her and really like her. Everyone knows I like her. Even my wife guessed at that (they have never met, but my wife has at least seen her profile picture on Facebook and knows she is someone we hang out with sometimes).
Now that no contact has been broken after five months, I have started looking at pictures of her again. I have followed her best friend on Facebook again (LO #3 wouldn’t accept my friend request herself a year ago). I am happy to say though that the limerence is still there, but it isn’t as intrusive. Things are getting much better at work, and I can put her out of my mind when I need to. I can even think about other women. I still very much like her though. Of course, I find myself looking forward to seeing her again. I don’t want that painful, bleak experience of writing her off forever, but I do want to keep her on the backburner.
I know I should focus on getting over the limerence and getting out of my marriage, but I don’t want this lady to completely slip out of my fingers. She is too fantastic for that. I want to tell her I think she may be the most fantastic woman I’ve ever met, but I don’t want to freak her out. Any advice on this? I really do want to get out of my completely dead marriage. I won’t cheat, and this woman has very solid morals. But I can’t help thinking about the future, and I do maintain that being in a situation like mine (living like roommates for 7-8 years and me telling her clearly and unequivocally hundreds of times over the last 4.5 years that I want a divorce and that nothing will change my mind) has to mean the parameters of acceptable conduct must shift at least slightly. I look but I don’t touch, but someday I would love to be able to touch, albeit not while I’m still living under the same roof as my wife.
To Vicarious Limerent:
Forgive me for not being up to speed on your story.
What exactly is the situation with your marriage?
If you become single, are there any obstacles to you and LO getting together?
” I want to tell her I think she may be the most fantastic woman I’ve ever met, but I don’t want to freak her out. Any advice on this?”
I wouldn’t tell her anything. I’m not a fan of just telling someone how you feel if you aren’t going to do anything about it.That seems selfish to me. You’ve repeated in this post and previous posts that you won’t have an affair (I’m not advocating that you do) and that that’s not her style, anyway. So you wait until you’re out of your marriage. You can’t have it both ways. Staying in the marriage/not cheating while at the same time putting out little tentacles. I’m not sure how else to put it.
Vicarious,
I’d agree with all of what Marcia said. Saying that to your LO would freak her out for sure, and what is she supposed to do with the information?? *Much* smaller compliments might be OK. But don’t say anything as ‘grand’ as that. It’s ok that you think it, but don’t voice it if your interest is in keeping some level of friendship with her.
It would be very unfair to her to declare yourself to her when you’re not actually able to offer her anything. What would you want her to do? Wait for you just in case you become single in future? That’s a lousy thing to ask.
If you become single in future, you would be welcome to declare yourself to her then, although I would recommend you keep it light and don’t declare the full force of your feelings, because it would just freak her out.
Is there anything, anything you can do to move forward with getting out of your marriage? I think you’ve explained before so forgive me for forgetting. It is that you would lose your house?
I’m not a big fan of disclosure. In your case, I don’t know what you would gain telling her anything, being you are still bound to a Wife.
But let’s just say you did tell her all that. How long do you expect her to wait? If she is a quality Woman, another Man is sure to eventually see that and try his luck. Especially if she’s putting herself on the market.
The hurdles you continually post about in ending your marriage almost seem like divorce will never happen, because you haven’t made any progress in making it happen yet. Or did I miss something? Believe me, I do know first hand divorce absolutely sucks and going through one is hardly a cake walk. I understand why its hard to get the wheels in motion.
I’m sure its fanatical bliss to think about being in a loving relationship. For as long as you’ve put up with your bitter Wife, I can understand why nothing will change your mind in wanting out. However I feel you’re only hurting yourself by putting it off and thinking about possible relationships you won’t take part in till you’re actually divorced. It’s nice to think about, but I think it would be unfair to expect her to wait until you’re actually ready.
OK, thanks everyone. No grand declarations then. I think I already knew the answer to my question. I wasn’t expecting my LO to wait around for me. I have no intentions of turning her into the other woman or a homewrecker (whether real or perceived). I also understand that monkey branching isn’t the best strategy. In truth, I see it as a bit different. I am completely committed to avoiding cheating while my wife and I are still living under the same roof. I would not date anyone else unless and until we are living separately and officially separated — and even then, not for several months afterwards — so not monkey branching per se because I wouldn’t want to “swing” into another relationship right away. I was just hoping to deepen our friendship with the understanding that if she isn’t interested, or if she meets someone else or friendzones me, that’s life. I just wanted her to come out with us more than once every few months and maybe actually be friends on social media. That’s basically it until anything else could happen. I’m not looking for an affair (emotional or otherwise) and I’m not looking for one-on-one time with her (although she could trust me even if that were the case). I suspect she’s got other guys in her life anyway, and I wouldn’t try to stop her from pursuing anyone else.
For those who don’t know my situation, I am in a very bad marriage with a wife who is often quite abusive both to me and our daughter. She is bossy, controlling, manipulative, angry, boring and often lazy. We’ve been living like roommates for 7-8 years, and I came to the realization 4.5 years ago that I want separation and divorce and that nothing will EVER change my mind. I’ve told her literally hundreds of times I want out and that I will never change my mind, yet she either ignores that or threatens suicide or to burn the house down. I have made her a generous financial offer as a separation agreement, but she turned it down. Everyone keeps on saying I don’t need her permission for separation and divorce, but I do need her permission to sell the house. We live in an insanely expensive area, and I would need to stop paying the mortgage and property tax to even rent a room on my own, or to get my share of the equity in the house to buy a place of my own. I can take her to court to force a sale of the house, but that takes court action. If I served her with papers while living under the same roof she WOULD damage property, be violent, cause a scene, ruin my reputation and negatively impact my work performance. She would also battle me in court so that the only ones better off would be the lawyers. She is a vindictive bitch, yet things are at least pleasant and cordial between us as long as I’m a good, compliant little boy who does what he’s told and serves as her slave and her wallet. I don’t have it in my to live in a 24/7 hatefest with her. That is the only thing that might convince her it’s over, but it would take months or maybe even a year before she gets it. Meanwhile, I’d live in hell. This woman doesn’t get cognitive dissonance. Everything is so black and white with her. There are other complicating factors I won’t get into here, but suffice to say I have a pretty good understanding of the law, and the fact that I want out shouldn’t be news to her. I think she is mentally ill and may have some type of personality disorder. So I escape through limerent fantasies. Can anyone blame me?
I come on here not for advice with my marriage. It is so much more complicated than anyone realizes, but I definitely want out. I have no reservations about separation and divorce; my mind is made up. I just have to deal with a delusional spouse who will fight me every step of the way and serious financial strain and debt. People say, “Just rent a room!” That is a million light years away from something I can afford. We are so broke and in debt. People just don’t get it. Eventually, I have to find a way to pull the trigger. She can’t keep me in a bad marriage against my will for the rest of my life. I am going to contact my EAP because I’m at my wits end. I am so ready to start my new life, yet that is about 100 steps beyond where I am now. I know I will have to go through hell with my wife. She does not understand, “I care about you and want the best for you. I even still love you in some ways. But I have no wish to be married to you, and frankly I’d rather be dead than spend the rest of my life married to you.” I might have to get really nasty, but I am so afraid of the shitstorm that will come my way. I’m not dealing with a normal, sane or rational person.
I’m so sorry to hear all this. Are there any domestic abuse charities or organisations that you can go to for help and advice? I realise there may be fewer support services available for men than for women, but you must find help from somewhere. Many people have been trapped in abusive relationships and escaped, somehow, even though it seemed impossible. You have been in this situation too long and need to find a way out.
There might be but the abuse is rarely physical. It’s more emotional. She would gaslight and turn it around, saying I’m the abusive one. But I hear you; I might need some support to get out of this mess. I also need the courage to finally pull the trigger on the marriage because she is never going to let me go willingly.
Although I meant everything I said in my above two posts, I guess in a way I’m looking for a little more validation from my LO as an incentive to leave my marriage. I’m not going to leave my wife for her; I only want to leave her because my marriage isn’t working for me. But if I thought I could be with this lovely lady who is totally my type that might provide some encouragement to get out of my marriage more quickly and decisively.
You may have already looked into this but in case you haven’t..
You can obtain free divorce papers for any state by visiting the website of your state’s court system or the relevant county court website, or by contacting the clerk of court in your county. Many states provide downloadable forms for free online, often within a section dedicated to family law or divorce.
Here’s a more detailed breakdown:
1. State Court Websites: Most states have their court websites where you can find divorce forms. Look for a section related to family law or divorce, and you will likely find free downloadable forms, sometimes within a specific “divorce packet”.
2. County Court Websites:
Some states may require you to obtain forms from the specific county court where you will be filing for divorce. You can usually find these forms on the county court’s website.
3. Contact the Clerk of Court:
If you are unable to find the forms online, you can contact the clerk of the court in your county and inquire about obtaining the necessary paperwork. They may have physical copies or be able to direct you to where to find them.
4. Consider Legal Aid or Non-profit Organizations:
If you are facing financial hardship, legal aid organizations or non-profit legal services in your state may be able to provide free or low-cost assistance with divorce paperwork.
Important Considerations:
Residency Requirements:
Divorce laws and residency requirements vary by state. You should confirm the residency requirements for your state before filing.
Filing Fees:
While the forms may be free, there are typically filing fees associated with starting a divorce. If you can’t afford these fees, you may be able to petition the court for a waiver.
Uncontested vs. Contested:
Forms and procedures may differ depending on whether your divorce is uncontested (where both parties agree on the terms) or contested (where there are disagreements).
Seek Legal Advice:
If you have any questions or concerns about the divorce process, it is always a good idea to seek legal advice from a qualified attorney.
This is to Vicarious Limerent:
That is great that MJ provided so much good information. However, if your wife is so combative about the house, I would advise you to get a lawyer.
You may need a court order to get her to sell the house. That’s going to get tricky, and you will need help.
Just remember, though, you don’t need her permission for anything. If she behaves unfairly or irrationally, a judge can step in to help.
Vicarious,
Abuse doesn’t have to be physical. Emotional abuse is still abuse.
Please have a think about the suggestions that other people on this board have made about how to to access the help you need. Think about what you want your life to be like one year from now and five years from now. Sending strength.
I am trying No Contact again after the umpteenth failure.
I had a bad setback last week when LO accidentally texted me a flirty message meant for a man. Ugh. I know he’s gay, but ugh.
I am having two scary (but safe) medical procedures tomorrow, and there was a time when I would have texted him to ask for him to wish me luck, but I have absolutely zero desire to do that now.
So even though I think I am failing spectacularly, I am pleased to see these very small improvements.
Small improvements are still better than no improvements! Best of luck with your medical procedures 🙃
To Whenitrains:
Bless your heart for saying that. I can use the encouragement!
Best of luck with tomorrow’s appointments.
To Miss Cloud:
Thank you. Almost ready to begin fasting.
Will be glad when it’s over.
I hope things go well, too!
And your feelings are normal. 🙂
Ugh! They just called and rescheduled!!!
More time to worry.
Good luck with your medical procedures. I hope they go well.
I posted above about my five month period of no contact (well, five months of not seeing my LO and six weeks or so of not being on a group chat with her, albeit one that she almost never commented on). In some ways, it felt like a failure not enforcing no contact, but I actually think that period of not seeing her or hearing from her (and not checking to see if she’d seen the group chat messages) made me feel better. My thoughts are much less intrusive now, and I think the period of no contact helped.
No contact can be very bleak, but I think it can help wean us off our LOs to some extent and allow us to gain clarity. I think it can be worth it even if it isn’t forever. I do feel for you though. At least with my LO we’re both straight (although there are some rumours about her and her best friend being in a lesbian relationship, I think they’re just good friends and I know they have both had relationships with guys in the past). It must be so difficult to be in a situation where you are limerent for someone you know will never reciprocate. All the best to you! That’s a tough one.
To Vicarious Limerent:
I did want to make a comment about your separation situation. I have been through a scorched-earth divorce myself.
You may not need her permission to sell the house, but you CAN obtain a court order. If the Court finds it’s best for the situation, a sale will be ordered, and there is not a damn thing she can do about it.
Food for thought.
I hate for that to be the one thing holding you back.
Regarding my LO–I truly must have been fooling myself that I was doing very well breaking away, until he texted me and called me, “My brilliant prince.” For a split second, I thought he was actually talking to me, even though the gender was wrong.
I was thrown off completely, even though I laughed it off and he has no idea how I actually felt.
Medical procedures put off until Monday–very displeased but nothing I can do. I hate waiting.
To Vicarious Limerent:
I should have clarified better about the house issue. Obviously I don’t know where you live or what the laws are.
However, I posted on a divorce message board for a couple of years during my divorce, and there were stories of people from all over describing situations where recalcitrant spouses had to be ordered to do things that were obviously in everyone’s best interest–things from giving children their prescribed meds, to handing over automobile registration tags.
When people get angry during divorces, they behave irrationally and will refuse the simplest, most reasonable request, and they may have to be ordered to do so.
Thanks everyone for the advice and thoughts, and sorry for the delayed response (things were busy and I can’t go on here when my wife is around).
I generally don’t like to advertise my exact location, but suffice to say I don’t actually live in the United States. Things are a little different here, but there is legislation that will allow for a spouse to petition a court to order the sale of a matrimonial home. I know it can be done, but it’s the thought of what she would do to me after serving her with papers while living under the same roof that really scares me. She can be vindictive in very creative ways. I thought if I could draw up a separation agreement that treats her fairly and takes her needs into consideration that would help, but she is literally within her rights to tear it up. Even though I have a legal background myself, I’m not a family lawyer. I may need to see one. I would have to do it secretly because she would go ballistic and has my finances very tightly controlled. This has to end. It’s getting ridiculous. I will be coming into some inheritance too, and that will help me to afford a place of my own. It may also help me sweeten my offer to her a bit, even though I realize that my family inheritance should be mine and not hers.
Maybe I could even be with my LO? That should NOT be my primary motivation, but I am pretty sure there is/was a spark on her end too. But if I stay with my wife for much longer I likely will never know. I do understand that I am pedestalizing my current LO, but there are some completely observable and objective things I really like about her. I think she’s gorgeous too. There’s something about that beautiful, tall, curvaceous, but somewhat private, shy and mysterious lady that always attracted me right from when I first laid eyes on her (long before I was ever limerent for her). Anyway, I’m getting way ahead of myself here. Marriage first, dating later, but if I have to use my LO as a little bit of extra motivation I don’t see that as necessarily being a bad thing.
Thanks LaR – you genuinely offer me such good advice and I greatly appreciate it.
Yes, you’re right about our differing circumstances – work probably the only similarity. But I greatly admire your proactive efforts to pull away.
I just feel buffeted by the lack of control I have – but, as you say, there are ways to wrest it back and that should be my focus.
Hi Phil,
Yes – for sure it is nearly always easier to give up something semi-voluntarily, rather than have it snatched away. The regaining of control for you can only be in relation to how you respond.
I started the pulling away the beginning of this year and killed hope in spring, so I have a while of this under my belt now in comparison. It was a big hit into the buffers to start with, and then stop and start since – some backslides but general direction of travel I’m happy with. It wasn’t entirely voluntary on my part, but I could see a much worse hit into the buffers coming if I didn’t pull back.
I still couldn’t predict how I’d deal with it if my friend behaved towards me like your LO is to you – I am not going to say I’d sail through it (I still have to work very closely with her). You’ve got our ears here when you need a vent.
Sammy,
“I am out of my limerence now 100%.”
I think a congratulation is in order since you’ve declared twice that you’re 100% out of your limerence❗️👏
I think most of Limerents here would agree that during our limerence episode, we ALL said or did something bad, regrettable or sheerly out of our normal characters. If we were constantly rational and behaved like a “saint”, we would not fall in 🆎 maddening Limerence in the first place….
Yet, we need to look at the final outcome: we can recover and have recovered from Limerence, whether it has taken 8 years or over 2 decades. Welcome to the 100% limerence recovered camp! Thank Dr L for his work and LwL site‼️
How is your father doing? still playing poker games? I hope he’s not in too much pain and his spirit is still light….
Now, if you “annoy” fellow readers again, you can NO Longer blame on your LE of Gone With Wind… 😀
Now, if you “bore/charm/entertain/annoy” fellow readers again, you can No Longer use your jail-free LE-card… 😀 We will charge you with some other serious “crimes” 👩🏻⚖️🧑⚖️ …❗️
Is Sammy here? I don’t see a post.
At any time, you can start a new thread and Initiate a new post to anyone you wish to…
Also check “Latest Comments” on the right side of your screen (a Computer or Notepad), I believe, where you can see who has posted.
To Snow:
Ah, I see it now. Thank you.
I am having some success with privately vilifying my LO and repeating certain phrases over and over to myself.
Unlike someone who might have a kindly LO, I don’t have this problem.
My LO is occasionally kindly, but usually not. The last time we spoke, he paid me a compliment, and I asked him if he was being sarcastic. I assumed he was mocking me. I don’t know what that says about me. I don’t normally have a problem accepting compliments.
Most of the time he is indifferent, interspersed with irritability. If I weren’t limerent for him, I wouldn’t give him the time of day.
I hope I am really doing better this time, and not just fooling myself.
Keep up the good work ND.
This time, don’t fold like a cheap suit.. 😆
Dear MJ:
You know me so well.
How has menopause affected your libido?
Before HRT, I had none. Then I started on progesterone and my libido was normal. I did a short stint on estrogen to help with sleep but it proved to be way too much (emotions everywhere and libido off the chart). I’m perimenopausal so feeling more balanced with just the progesterone.
How closely was libido tied to your limerence before (i.e. did limerence generally make you more lusty)?
I’ve never been limerent before this episode.
Did going through menopause change the experience of limerence for you?
I think perimenopause changed a lot of things for me esp. how I viewed myself. I took a contract job 3 hours from home and was trying to make new friends, get established, etc. My LO was a single guy at work who was charming and kind and had lots of female friends. I thought he was gay at first but quickly realized he was not. Looking back now, I think it made me feel like a normal woman instead of a mom/wife/cleaner/errand runner/all the things that make a woman feel less like a woman. I felt free again and I think that his focus on me made me feel like a “me” I hadn’t seen since before marriage.
Did the strength of limerent feelings change?
My feelings were very strong because I felt emotionally bonded to this man. He was really my support while away from my family. He connected me with other people, spent time with me when I stayed in town some weekends, and was very involved with my work project. I realized I was in trouble when my husband met him and didn’t trust him. He cautioned me about the friendship but said he trusted me. I wish I had put more distance between myself and my LO but by that time, I was craving the dopamine response.
If you were in a long-term relationship before menopause, did the transition affect your feelings towards your partner?
Yes, it has definitely impacted our relationship. I found out that my LO was having an affair with another colleague and was truly crushed. I felt he should have told me but also felt like he was using me. I told my spouse about it and he was not surprised that my LO was having an affair. In fact, he was elated because this was exactly what he expected from my LO. I thought my LO was truly a man of honor and integrity but quickly came to see he was not. This has been hard for my spouse and I but I think it has made us closer. I have not told my spouse about my limerence as I’m still working my contract position for the next 3 months. I want to make sure we focus on each other and him not worry about the distance.
I did confront my LO about his affair and told him we couldn’t be friends anymore. This was really hard but I was upset with his behavior. I felt used in some ways (for example, I found out that he would text me when he couldn’t be with her) and there was a lot of lying. He couldn’t understand why I was upset but I think he didn’t want to lose me and so hid it from me. We don’t speak anymore and I’m hoping that I can get through the next few weeks without interacting with him.
Why did you feel used? It sounds like he was trying to maintain the friendship with you. He didn’t use you to get to her ? Or only maintain a friendship with you until she became available to hang out with.
Hi Marcia,
It’s complicated…isn’t it always, though. I think that if we were truly good friends, he wouldn’t have told such stupid lies about going out of town with this woman and just be honest with me. At best, it made me feel like he thought I was too dumb to notice the inconsistencies; at worst, he thought I wasn’t brave enough to challenge or ask him about the circumstances. I was also shocked that he would have an affair. He seemed to regard himself as honorable and a person of integrity. That’s the person I thought I knew him to be. When I told my husband about my LOs affair, he said he was not surprised at all. In fact, he was glad it had come to this because my husband told me that he didn’t trust my LO at all and was worried he’d try something with me.
I’ve struggled with my own feelings about my LO but had thought I’d had this under control. This clearly showed I did not. I knew that I had to end the “friendship” because my husband would never be ok with us hanging out again. I also didn’t like that he lied about the relationship and felt, in some ways, he was playing the 2 of us women off each other – using me to make her jealous at times.
I still think about him and sometimes wish it hadn’t ended. I know I did the right thing though. This has made going no contact easier. He would never had let me go. In fact, after I found out about the affair but before I asked him about it, I was actively trying to avoid him. I just wanted to hide and really, couldn’t be around him. He kept texting me and asking me what was wrong for 2 straight days. I knew I’d never be able to just stop talking to him so I confronted him. After that, he hasn’t spoken to me since. He told me the woman was in an open relationship with her husband so he had her text me and explain everything. It was awful – it just made me angrier.
Anyway, I’m dealing with my Limerence and trying to figure out how to stop wishing for closure with him. It’s a pain in the butt and I hate it.
The Complex Life
Iris Tree
I know it to be true that those who live
As do the grasses and the lilies of the field
Receiving joy from Heaven, sweetly yield
Their joy to Earth, and taking Beauty, give.
But we are gathered for the looms of Fate
That Time with ever-turning multiplying wheels
Spins into complex patterns and conceals
His huge invention with forms intricate.
Each generation blindly fills the plan,
A sorry muddle or an inspiration of God
With many processes from out the sod,
The Earth and Heaven are mingled and made man.
We must be tired and sleepless, gaily sad,
Frothing like waves in clamorous confusion,
A chemistry of subtle interfusion,
Experiments of genius that the ignorant call mad.
We spell the crimes of our unruly days,
We see a fabled Arcady in our mind,
We crave perfection that we may not find.
Time laughs within the clock and Destiny plays.
You peasants and you hermits simple livers!
So picturesquely pure all unconcerned
While we give up our bodies to be burned,
And dredge for treasure in the muddy rivers.
We drink and die and sell ourselves for power,
We hunt with treacherous steps and stealthy knife,
We make a gaudy havoc of our life
And live a thousand ages in an hour.
Our loves are spoilt by introspective guile,
We vivisect our souls with elaborate tools,
We dance in couples to the tune of fools,
And dream of harassed continents the while.
Subconscious visions hold us and we fashion
Delirious verses tortured statues spasms of paint,
Make cryptic perorations of complaint,
Inverted religion and perverted passion.
But since we are children of this age,
In curious ways discovering salvation,
I will not quit my muddled generation,
But ever plead for Beauty in this rage.
Although I know that Nature’s bounty yields
Unto simplicity a beautiful content,
Only when battle breaks me and my strength is spent
Will I give back my body to the fields.
Stanzas
Emily Brontë
1818 –1848
Often rebuked, yet always back returning
To those first feelings that were born with me,
And leaving busy chase of wealth and learning
For idle dreams of things that cannot be:
To-day, I will seek not the shadowy region;
Its unsustaining vastness waxes drear;
And visions rising, legion after legion,
Bring the unreal world too strangely near.
I’ll walk, but not in old heroic traces,
And not in paths of high morality,
And not among the half-distinguished faces,
The clouded forms of long-past history.
I’ll walk where my own nature would be leading:
It vexes me to choose another guide:
Where the gray flocks in ferny glens are feeding;
Where the wild wind blows on the mountain side.
What have those lonely mountains worth revealing?
More glory and more grief than I can tell:
The earth that wakes one human heart to feeling
Can centre both the worlds of Heaven and Hell.
Brother
We had an all out fist-t-cuffs, “They call that the Stinger” (kudos to my Simpsons fans that get that reference) no hold bars argument last night about divorce, separation, LO, was/is there an affair there?, do you want separate to chase LO, maybe I’m no good for you anymore and another man could do better than your now alcoholic husband, I just want what’s best for you, till the early hours of the morning.
That ended up us making out like teenagers in a parked car. I’ll never understand women. They will be the death of me long before alcohol has a chance.
Talking in your sleep?
Adam,
“no hold bars argument last night about divorce, separation, LO, was/is there an affair there?, do you want separate to chase LO”
I’m not trying to sound harsh, but most of us limerents on here have no chance with our LOs. Doesn’t she know that?
Marcia,
Mamma is in this forum, but I’m not sure how often she comes here to scan over stuff or if she reads DrL’s feature articles.
Snow,
“Mamma is in this forum, but I’m not sure how often she comes here to scan over stuff or if she reads DrL’s feature articles.”
OK, but some of it is common sense. They’re not in contact, don’t see each other, she’s much younger, etc.
Adam, I think she just wants reassurance. I don’t know what triggered your fight, but I suspect that Momma had good reasons to feel insecure. Feeling insecure stinks. A lot of people don’t handle it well.
Adam, if I were Momma, do you know what I would love to hear over and over?
“I choose you. I want you. I don’t want her because she isn’t you.”
I would love to hear many variations of “I choose you.” many times. That would help me to feel secure.
That’s the best mantra, with the word “choose”… ‼️
Our logical mind can’t choose Glimmer, but can choose and elongate our profound love/affection for our chosen, worthy beloved.
Adam, please repeat such a mantra to your Mamma…
I want to share a story. A few months ago I was playfully wrestling with my SO when he said, “You are so beautiful!” I suggested, “You have to say that because you’re my husband, but do you really think I’m beautiful?” He said, “You’re the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen”. I asked, “Would you still think I was beautiful even if we weren’t married to each other?” He thought about it for a moment and then replied, “That is a difficult question to answer because if I wasn’t married to you, I would be married to another woman and then I wouldn’t even notice your beauty because I would be focused on my wife.” He left me speechless.
I don’t know why I wanted to share that story in this context except perhaps to give an example of how to reassure your wife that she is your top priority.
I think that biggest actual part of the argument was whether we are still good for each other or not. Not that necessarily I or she wants someone new. I remember early into posting here L.E. telling me that for therapy to work you can’t stay comfortable in our own pathologies. And we both have our own clashing pathologies we are sitting in.
Miss Lovisa
I will always choose her. I told her I would still choose you (and our son still at home) to take of. You would be comfortable in this home and I will take care of all your needs if I did go away.
I don’t want someone else. But I feel this demon of mine is getting the worst of me and I can’t fight it. And I don’t want to put her through being the witness to battle I can’t win. But she told me that she chooses to stay with me. I’m just trying to protect her.
The argument was initially sparked by me because I got jealous (I know imagine that hypocrisy) about an online content creator she talks about a lot (like I did LO) and grabbed the tiger by the tail. Until the tiger bit me in the ass with the realization that maybe she does need someone more stable.
I met with a couple from church two weeks ago for a meal together and spilled it all out, minus the use of limerence and using EA, to them. They are a young couple with 3 year old son and a recently newborn baby. They were very understanding and helpful. As much as I love my friends here in this community it was helpful to be able to spill all this out to a human face with human reactions. I am very grateful for the time they gave to listen to me.
Now I’d better get ready for church.
Miss Marcia
I never had a chance with LO even if I had no barriers. I know that. I don’t understand how she doesn’t. My literal first thought when Momma came at me with an affair was “really? You think I can pull a woman like that?” I didn’t say it out loud because I’m not an idiot. But it’s what I thought.
Mister Adam,
I wasn’t dismissing your wife’s concerns. I certainly understand why she would feel threatened by your LO. But your LO is more of a psychological threat than an actual threat. That’s what I meant.
“My literal first thought when Momma came at me with an affair was “really? You think I can pull a woman like that?” I didn’t say it out loud because I’m not an idiot. But it’s what I thought.”
I’m not going to lie to you: This would bother me. Even if the outside world thought I was a 6, for example, I’d want the man I was with to think I was a 10. I’d want him to think he was lucky to be with me, and I’d want to think that about him. How’d I land this guy? Even if he wasn’t “hot” to the outside world. It wouldn’t matter. Just as it wouldn’t matter what everyone else thought of me. Only him.
Miss 👒 Marcia,
“This would bother me. Even if the outside world thought I was a 6, for example, I’d want the man I was with to think I was a 10. I’d want him to think he was lucky to be with me, and I’d want to think that about him. How’d I land this guy? Even if he wasn’t “hot” to the outside world.”
Do you mind if I’m more straight forward here and give my INFP 👯♀️ a bit tough love⁉️
To WANT someone else to think this way or that way of you (universal), you’d enslave your mind, your psychology, your entire being to another’s merciful discerning eyes 🧿, even he’s a #10 LO in your crushed 👀 ❗️Unwise, UNWISE‼️🫤
If you’re a 6 and he does “think” you’re 10, and vice versa, then you’re both blind and delusional, 🆎 inauthentic❗️ How long such a delusion could last? Your own stories would tell you and us…
If you REALLY want to be freed from LE, do you still want to hold onto such a DETRIMENTAL/DAMAGING view to your psyche and wellbeing❓
I don’t have a lot of time this moment to argue about Self, Self validation, or Self confidence, from both the Easter and Western perspectives, but I’ll repeat a question that was never answered —
When you (universal) were not in Limerence, did/do you like/love yourself❓ Did you try to cultivate your INNER SELF from level 6 to 8 or even a10, regardless what the outer world thinks❓If not, why would a stranger suddenly “see” you a 10, when yourself could not see it in YOU❓Do you really think a 10 in outer appearance would last once a crush cools down or once LO flips over your skirt❓
You have repeatedly stressed that confidence is a huge appeal for anyone; so where does one’s confidence COME from❓where do lasting, substantial validations come from❓Drop from the earth-landing LO or be germinated from within, growing from a sprout 🌱 to a tree🌴 ⁉️
In my 👁️ : when you can shine on your own like 🌞, you’d magnetically draw many 🌕 🌙 🌖 to your orbit… Then pick up a LO to your bed 🛏️ 😇
When I get more time, I’ll give you more tough 💗 🫂
Snow,
“When I get more time, I’ll give you more tough 💗 🫂”
I can’t go back and forth with you on the validation topic anymore. We aren’t going to agree.
No one is delusional in this scenario. Both parties know they’re not really 10s.
Ok, I’ll keep my mouth shut 🤐 and watch you suffer… 😢
Best of luck 🤞
One Sister have I in our house (14)
Emily Dickinson
One Sister have I in our house –
And one a hedge away.
There’s only one recorded,
But both belong to me.
One came the way that I came –
And wore my past year’s gown –
The other as a bird her nest,
Builded our hearts among.
She did not sing as we did –
It was a different tune –
Herself to her a Music
As Bumble-bee of June.
Today is far from Childhood –
But up and down the hills
I held her hand the tighter –
Which shortened all the miles –
And still her hum
The years among,
Deceives the Butterfly;
Still in her Eye
The Violets lie
Mouldered this many May.
I spilt the dew –
But took the morn, –
I chose this single star
From out the wide night’s numbers –
Sue – forevermore!
Miss Marcia,
Forget to tell you one thing that I did/do: when men “came/come” to me for validation of some sort in whatever subtle/unknowing ways, I WALK(ed) away…. If I see they want some but not actively SEEKING or eagerly SELF—cultivating, I’d indirectly but firmly give what they want… I have enough bread to give/share…
I made a big professional mistake last week in the class: I so purposely ignored that annoying limerent pet sitting and eye- drooling on the first row next to the window, that I FORGOT to give him a chance to deliver his oral exam 😱 — I forgot his existence in front of others‼️
He did not raise his hand until the end of the session, “…, you forgot me.” I was horrified 😳 … and have to give him a chance on Tuesday.
I’m with Marcia. You don’t want your SO to think of you as a consolation prize. Every now and then, my SO speaks of a mutual friend as if he would’ve been with her if she weren’t married when they met 30 years ago. (I don’t think that’s actually the case.) It’s not often, but it sure doesn’t make me feel good when he talks that way.
Adam,
We have a lot to talk about. I’m in a hurry right now. I’ll be back after church.
Miss Marcia
I think that the thoughts that people thought I had of her were romantic or sexual because of her genetics being conventionally “hot” (as much as I hate that expression) were what frustrated me the most. She was, using your metrics, easily a 10 if not 11. But she let me inside of who she really was. Past the genetics. She as a whole woman is just as beautiful as Momma. It’s the women inside both of her and Momma I cherish. I’m just not sure at this juncture in my life that I’m deserving of their’s adoration.
🎩 🥃,
To think your LO is 10 or even 11 is just pure ILLUSIONAL‼️ You only know her through limited work interactions, so comparing her inner beauty with Momma is UNFAIR and UNWISE! Sorry to snap at you❗️😤
If you truly think Momma is beautiful as a whole woman, please look into her eyes EVERY SINGLE DAY and repeatedly tell her SO, in your words ‼️ Positive affirmation works in its own power…
Adam,
“But she let me inside of who she really was. Past the genetics. She as a whole woman is just as beautiful as Momma. It’s the women inside both of her and Momma I cherish. ”
That’s actually a really cool thing to say. I would be highly flattered by that. You appreciate them for who they are. I would definitely tell your wife that (minus the comments about your LO, of course).
What I meant about someone being a 10 to me … do I think my LO was the hottest man on the planet? No. Aesthetically speaking, he wasn’t. But because I was really attracted to him (for whatever reason) … in my mind, he was really hot.
I’m fairly certain you are a 10 Dame Marcia but I don’t want to step on my bothers toes. Maybe some mimosas and eggs Benedict. *wink wink*
Adam,
Adam,
“but I don’t want to step on my bothers toes. ”
Feel free to step! Where is he, btw?
“Maybe some mimosas and eggs Benedict. *wink wink*”
Who’s bartending/cooking? ‘Cause it’s not your brother. We have yet to figure out what his skills are. 🙂
Snow,
“I made a big professional mistake last week in the class: I so purposely ignored that annoying limerent pet sitting and eye- drooling on the first row next to the window, that I FORGOT to give him a chance to deliver his oral exam 😱 — I forgot his existence in front of others‼️”
You’re his LO or he’s yours? Were you trying to block him subconsciously?
Miss 👒 👠 Marcia,
“You’re his LO or he’s yours? Were you trying to block him subconsciously?“
I’m his LO. (I told the unpleasant story here last December). He failed last Fall so came back to retake it, and I can’t deny his access officially. He’s going to fail again since he refuses to hand in any assignments and has terrible stage fright. He’s doing okay in other subjects, but so poor for my subject. He’s good looking (28 with a 6 yrs daughter), but I can’t stand his drooling eyes so just don’t look at his direction 🙄. Then I forgot his existence in the exam…
I can’t speak for other LOs, but myself: I never wanted or even appreciated any “validation” from those unwanted amorous attention (they did not even try to find out about your inner selves), and NEVER gave them an ounce of hope or uncertainty — that would be purely MEAN/CRUEL! Normally, they “left” without any fuss, but some zero-self-conscious ones just legitimately “stalk” you, what can you do? 🙄
“What I meant about someone being a 10 to me … do I think my LO was the hottest man on the planet? No. Aesthetically speaking, he wasn’t. But because I was really attracted to him (for whatever reason) … in my mind, he was really hot.”
That’s totally fine even if you want to subjectively think he’s 11 or 12 to you, it’s your thought, emotion, and imagination, which you ALONE can and should manage/decide. It’s just like that I “play with” my imagination or creations (poems), or music on worldly matters or other people — I don’t act on them and don’t lose my logical mind over them, I can say this now, since I’m so 100% out of my LE‼️
The issue/problem/headache is when you (universal) WANTs/DESIREs/pines for the other side(s) to think you in certain ways. e.g. a delusional 10 for a realistic 6, then you’d lose “control’ and suffer an acute anxiety, because you just can’t tell or manage anyone else’s mind, except to Hope LO is also in LE with you❗️It’s a fundamental Stoic principle — logically discern what’s within your control, and what is not❗️
Time, waiting, or pining does/will NOT improve your scores in LO’s discerning eyes (I know you don’t care the rest of the world, but some do. Think about the nature of your pain with LE-lite?). That’s why I strongly advocate to focus on one’s own cultivation for inner beauty and strength. If you’re a ☀️ confidently shining on your own, I’d be drawn to you wish to be your 🌖 ‼️
🎩 🥃 : you already have beautiful Mamma; thinking/viewing LO as a G10 or G11 will not help ease/rid of your LE. You need to rationalize down LO’s scores — everyone has shortcomings, so does your LO, my xLO, and every other limerent’s (x)LO❗️
I can’t tell you enough how much I feel liberated, confident, and happy without LE and that icky Longing….
My understanding of the 1 to 10 scale is that in any given setting, all of the women (or men) could be divided into ten groups by level of attractiveness. Each group must be even, so if there’s 40 women, 4 of them are tens, 4 of them a nines and so on. I’ve tried mentally sorting people in a crowd and it’s way easier to assign people above 5, but the lower number sorting just feels yucky. Who wants to assign someone to be a 1? It’s very uncomfortable even when you’re just doing it in your head.
Adam, it sounds like both you and Momma are feeling insecure.
It’s like you’re asking each other the same questions…
“I’m broken, can you love me even though I’m broken?” “Am I hurting you? Would you be better off without me?”
And you both want a truthful answer, but you’re hoping to hear…
“I see that you’re broken and it’s okay. I love you the way you are. My life is better with you in it. I’m not going anywhere.”
Miss Lovisa
I am broken for her. I have been from the start. Momma is the reason I’m alive. In my 20’s I was an absolute terrible drunk. If not for Momma I’d probably never made it past my 20’s without killing myself.
I tried to understand her pain; bi-polar, anxiety and protect and care for her with everything I am. But she signed up with me knowing full well she married an alcoholic. She didn’t choose to be what she is; I did. I love her for that. I don’t call her Momma for no reason. She takes care of me. I’ll always choose her.
Adam
The way I see it, I feel the 2 of you are still better off than separating. To me your arguments seem petty, but maybe thats because I was kind of in that same place at one time myself. My Wife and would battle it out over folding the laundry, keeping a tidy and organized home, or most of the time, her family. She came from a very large family and I am an only-child. So there were always disagreements about not understanding each other, based on our upbringings.
I don’t need to get into all the reasons why we’re separated, but what I will admit is, I regret what led to it every day. I don’t like coming home to a quiet house. Or at least knowing I’m going to be the only one in it.
While my marriage was not really a horror story, every Woman has a breaking point and apparently my Wife had reached hers. I look back on what I was doing to bring it down and there isn’t a thing I did that was worth what the outcome is now. Between the regret of losing my Wife as a best friend, the lack of romance in my life now and taking care of my aging Father, it’s no wonder I’m a limerent.
Obviously you and Momma have been through rough patches already. You already see each others shortcomings and she’s seen you through this LE. Remember to wake up with gratitude and try to remind her of your appreciation of what she gives to you. Love her because she accepts you, despite any of your shortcomings.
I’ll take that any day. Over someone who tells me they won’t judge me because of my past and then later on change their mind.
For what it’s worth Marcia, I’m with you on this and can see that you’re not literally scoring/ranking people on some kind of cold, predetermined, objective scale.
Attractiveness is far too elusive a concept for everyone to rate people in exactly the same way.
You think someone is a 10? That’s your business alone 😊
Phil,
“I’m with you on this and can see that you’re not literally scoring/ranking people on some kind of cold, predetermined, objective scale.”
Exactly. There’s a fair amount of romanticism attached to it. It’s how you feel about them that makes them a 10 in your eyes.
Dame Marcia
Based on Phil’s point you and Miss Lovisa are a ten. As was LO , as is Momma. And LIMMY where did you go? You gals break an old man’s heart.
Miss Marcia are you saying I could take you out on a date? Maybe I can double date you with Miss Norma without another guy. You like lobster bisque?
Adam,
“Miss Marcia are you saying I could take you out on a date?”
Yes. You’re married so I’m sure I’d like you. (C’mon. That was funny. :))
” Maybe I can double date you with Miss Norma without another guy. ”
Is this a trick you learned from your brother? Although if any guy on here could handle both me and Norma, it would be you. 🙂
“You like lobster bisque?”
Was it is with you and lobster bisque? Do you work for Red Lobster? 🙂
Adam,
“ Although if any guy on here could handle both me and Norma, it would be you. 🙂”
If anyone could hand both Dame and Norma, he’d be a walking God in LwL❗️
Dame is praising you to the highest height in Mount Olympia ‼️ 👏
To Marcia:
Adam wanted to take me out a while back, so I suggested lobster bisque.
I guess that’s all we’re allowed to eat now.
Adam 🎩 🥃,
How come you, along with your 💦 🦎 brother, never invited ❄️ for lobster bisque? Not even once when she poured her posts to your direction… ❗️🙄
🧠 🔨
Miss Snow
I’d love to take you out on a date and treat you to some lobster bisque. It’s not my thing but Miss Norma seems to like it so I’ll order it for her. I much prefer oysters with a bit of hot sauce on the half shell when it comes to seafood. But I’ll order what you’d like. Some stuffed flounder or alligator or rattlesnake. Momma Lovisa watching so we got to behave.
My Eyes Adorded You — Four Seasons
https://youtu.be/vYtpKBNTCB8?si=mk3h_y0_6d97l10r
To Adam:
If you don’t like lobster bisque, you should have said so.
You choose next time.
Anchovy pizza? With some black olives and jalopenos? Your choice of crust.
Adam:
You choose. You were so nice about the lobster bisque.
🎩 🍻,
Whee❗️ I’ve got a beautiful song, love it! 😻 I love singing or speaking with nasal sounds, so sexy! 🤩
Since I’m from the land where people eat anything with 2 and 4 legs except tables and chairs, I’ll take rattlesnake 🐍 — their meat is more tender and tasty than chicken 🐔
No alligators — your brother’s 👶 close kinship; otherwise, his caring Grandpa’s totally-abandoned grumpy 🦯 **cough……cough……cough** would fly 🪽 itself towards you and me…. (😹I can’t help pulling every 👻’s leg🦵🏽 🤣 😂 )
In the Grove: The Poet at Ten
Jane Kenyon
1947 –1995
She lay on her back in the timothy
and gazed past the doddering
auburn heads of sumac.
A cloud—huge, calm,
and dignified—covered the sun
but did not, could not, put it out.
The light surged back again.
Nothing could rouse her then
from that joy so violent
it was hard to distinguish from pain.
Here’s a great song that I haven’t thought of in years.
Very appropriate for this board.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n3OepDn5GU&list=RD0n3OepDn5GU&start_radio=1
I’ve never heard that version. My favorite is the Divinyls.
https://youtu.be/kJdnWsArEPo?si=mkXw_ogc8gzjvMEc
Hi Norma,
You have great taste in music as well as in art!
This is probably the most popular track from Roxy Music’s 1975 album, Siren, which was almost entirely devoted to limerance-adjacent themes — even the title evokes one of Tom Bellamy’s archetypes. I discovered thems a bit late, in the mid 1980’s and theys soon became one of my favorite bands. I found their combination of hard rock and romantic longing absolutely intoxicating, and it reflected my own state of mind very well — this period coincided with the first of my two most intense LE’s todate. I had more or less put them away for the last few decades, until I rediscovered them about three years ago, and started playing them on repeat. I don’t know if this was a coincidence or not, but around this same period, I fell into the second of my two most intense limerent experiences, this time for a girl 40 years younger, whom I’ve been posting about on this site.
Note to Adam: I can see from your comments that you are a youngster compared to Norma and me!
To CatCyclist:
Thank you for the nice compliment.
I must be the oldest one here.
I did not expect to get hit with the Limerence Stick in my seventies.
Miss Cat
“I can see from your comments that you are a youngster compared to Norma and me!”
Yeah, I know, I am much younger than Miss Norma. i don’t think I’ve known your age up until now. But there is also the fact that, what man wouldn’t want to see Christina Amphlett sing? I mean, there’s a reason that I Touch Myself is my favorite music video of theirs’s. 😉
“Try not to make fun of me too much..”
Brother I wanted to move it over here since it was getting off topic from the other thread of Dr. L’s.
I knew her favorite place for kolaches when I would bring breakfast to work for everyone. I never got assorted donuts without ensuring there were sprinkle donuts in the mix. I knew her favorite drink from a local coffee shop. I agreed to eat more at a state local burger joint more in the 5 months I worked with her than I have living here for 25 years. Brother I got no room to josh you about getting LF what she liked. I’d be a hypocrite to do that.
I too enjoy the zero sugar sodas. Since my heart condition, I can’t drink coffee anymore because it has too much caffeine. But when I do want a pick me up, I get a fountain Coke Zero. I rotate between Sprite, 7up and Ginger Ale zero sugar to mix with my vodka.
Though here in the last weeks I have been craving those spiked/hard sweet tea drinks. And I know there is probably a ton of sugar in that makes the sugar probably more detrimental to me than the actual alcohol. 🙂 My favorite is the half/half ones that are half sweet tea and half lemonade. Arnold Palmer had one for a while, that was soooo good. But I haven’t been able to find them anymore.
Speaking of Chrissy Amphlett..
This is a remake of Icehouse’ song from the 80s, “Love In Motion.” A track I have on LOs playlist. Her sultry vocals here fit like a glove. Her Leopard outfit in the video kind of mirrors an outfit LO likes to wear (imagine that). I love this song. This version came out in 92.
Like why couldn’t all of the 80s sound like this? I wouldn’t dislike a lot of it, if it did..
Icehouse (feat. Christina Amphlett)
“Love In Motion”
https://youtu.be/26HngY3zPrE?si=MSXSd48ZYqmR8iF7
Damn brother you just trying to give me a heart attack? Sweet Jesus, it’s cold shower time. 😉
Yeah its pretty decent.
Even for early 90s standards.
Holy crap I was only 21 in 92..
Good times.. 😆😂
Displaced
Mosab Abu Toha
In memory of Edward Said
I am neither in nor out.
I am in between.
I am not part of anything.
I am a shadow of something.
At best,
I am a thing that
does not really
exist.
I am weightless,
a speck of time
in Gaza.
But I will remain
where I am.
*******
I am weightless,
A speck of time
In Galaxy.
But I will remain
Where I am.
🐦🔥 😊
A Noun Sentence
Mahmoud Darwish
1941 –2008
A noun sentence, no verb
to it or in it: to the sea the scent of the bed
after making love … a salty perfume
or a sour one. A noun sentence: my wounded joy
like the sunset at your strange windows.
My flower green like the phoenix. My heart exceeding
my need, hesitant between two doors:
entry a joke, and exit
a labyrinth. Where is my shadow—my guide amid
the crowdedness on the road to judgment day? And I
as an ancient stone of two dark colors in the city wall,
chestnut and black, a protruding insensitivity
toward my visitors and the interpretation of shadows. Wishing
for the present tense a foothold for walking behind me
or ahead of me, barefoot. Where
is my second road to the staircase of expanse? Where
is futility? Where is the road to the road?
And where are we, the marching on the footpath of the present
tense, where are we? Our talk a predicate
and a subject before the sea, and the elusive foam
of speech the dots on the letters,
wishing for the present tense a foothold
on the pavement …
Hi Imho,
cannot locate your post 🙈I agree that it’s hard to follow here if one isn’t checking constantly, and for some reason the site collapses when I try to“search on site“.
Autumn mood, yes- moving on is good but still has traces of sadness, doesn’t it.
Still , autumn is my favorite season somehow. Nothing like the color of autumn sun on red and golden leaves.
I try not to focus on decay and things ending, but on pumpkin cake, cosy tea evenings etc.
Lots of work now too, which is good for me at the moment.
I hope you are ok at work, I remember challenges and feelings of overwhelm?
Lots of😘😘!
Yes, let’s embrace 🍁🍂🎃🍰☕🫖. Some folks may not be experiencing a seasonal change. We ( I ) should appreciate it more, the nature and beauty in each different season.
Work is getting better. It’s more me getting out of shutdown mode. If I were an author, it would have been described as a very bad case of writers block. Much of it attributable to my LE, but many other factors including the theme of this coffeehouse, no doubt.
I think this coffeehouse will close soon, so I will finish my drink, put my coat on and give you a warm hug farewell for now. Have a good rest of the weekend.
😘
„Work is getting better. It’s more me getting out of shutdown mode. If I were an author, it would have been described as a very bad case of writers block. Much of it attributable to my LE, but many other factors including the theme of this coffeehouse, no doubt.“
Good to hear it’s getting better! These are difficult times. Just yesterday I had a conversation about it with a slightly older colleague. I hope we’ll get out of the other end of perimenopause wiser and more relaxed, or maybe that’s wishful thinking…
Anyway, appreciating the small things while not sweating the small annoying stuff is something I try to do at the moment.
All the best for you😘😘
From “Vita Nuova”
[My thoughts all tend to speak of love]
Dante Alighieri
1265 –1321
translated from the Italian by Joseph Luzzi
My thoughts all tend to speak of Love,
And are of such a varied kind,
That one believes Love rules as friend,
Another calls his power crazed,
Another brings me hope and joy,
Another makes a flood of tears.
The goal of pity’s all they share,
Quaking with fear that fills my heart.
So I don’t know which theme to choose,
And though I wish to speak, words fail.
I find myself ensnared by Love!
The only harmony of mind
Can come from one whose help I loathe,
That Lady Pity who’s my shield.
Vita Nuova, 5
Dante Alighieri
1265 –1321
translated from the Italian by Joseph Luzzi
One day the most gracious woman of all, Beatrice,
was sitting in a place where prayers were being offered
to the Queen of Glory, Mary, and I could see my bliss
from where I stood. Directly between her and me,
there was a refined lady of great beauty who looked
at me several times, curious about my expression and
thinking that it was meant for her. At that point, many
became aware of her staring. I left soon after and heard
people saying, “Notice how that woman destroys him.”
When they named her, I understood that they were
speaking of the one who had stood directly in front
of Beatrice when I was gazing at her. This comforted
me, as I assured myself I had not revealed my secret
love for Beatrice earlier that day with all my staring. I
thought of making that other lovely woman a “screen”
for the truth, and I succeeded so much in doing so that
in a short time all those who spoke of me believed that
they knew my secret. I admired this woman for months
and even years, and to make the others believe in my
ploy, I wrote some random poems for her that I have no
intention of revealing here—except for when they relate
to the gracious Beatrice. So I will leave them all out and
include only what is in praise of her.
Vita Nuova, 2
Dante Alighieri
1265 –1321
translated from the Italian by Joseph Luzzi
The sun had already circled the earth nine times since
my birth when the glorious lady of my mind appeared
before my eyes. Many called her Beatrice, she who
blesses, even if they did not know her name. She had
been in this world long enough for the heaven of the fixed
stars to move a twelfth of a degree to the east. So she
was in the beginning of her ninth year when I saw her,
while I was at the end of mine. She was dressed in the
noblest of colors, an understated and dignified crimson,
with her clothes cut and adorned in a manner appropriate
for her young age. I confess that at that point my animal
spirit, which dwells in the heart’s most secret chamber,
began to tremble so violently that I could feel its pain
even in the farthest reaches of my blood. Trembling,
the spirit said in Latin, “Here is a god stronger than
me, who comes to dominate me.” Then this awestruck
animal spirit, which lives in the brain that receives the
perceptions of all the other sensitive spirits, directed its
words to the eyes and said to them in Latin, “Your bliss
has now appeared.” My natural spirit, which is found
in the part of us that controls our digestion, began to
cry, and in tears it said in Latin, “Oh miserable me, what
endless obstacles await!”
From then on Love governed my soul, which
surrendered to him entirely. He ruled over me with so
much assurance and authority, fueled by my imagination,
that all I could do was satisfy his every wish. He would
order me to seek out the young angelic Beatrice, so in
those early years I often went searching for her and found
her looking so noble and praiseworthy that she recalled
those words of Homer: “She seemed the daughter not of
a mortal man, but of a god.” Even though Love ruled
over me through her omnipresent image, which was so
pure in essence that it never allowed him to guide me
without the sound advice of reason in those matters
where it was useful. Since it may seem absurd to go on
speaking of the passions and deeds of one so young, I
will now stop. I will also omit many other things that I
could have copied from the source of these recollections
in my Book of Memory, and I will return to material
written in more important chapters.
From “Vita Nuova”
[To every captive soul and gentle heart]
Dante Alighieri
1265 –1321
translated from the Italian by Joseph Luzzi
To every captive soul and gentle heart,
I now address these words of mine to you
In hope you will return with a reply,
As I salute our lord, the god of Love.
A third of night already had eclipsed
The shining of the brightest stars on high,
When suddenly Love came before my eyes—
The thought of him still haunts my troubled mind.
He held my heart in hand and seemed all joy,
My sleeping lady wrapped inside his arms.
Then he awakened her and she, in fright,
Began to humbly eat my burning heart.
And then I saw him disappear in tears.
Marcia,
I found a few lines of Dante’s description and his consuming love/LE for Beatrice, when he was only 9, and it burned inside himself all his life… He wrote “inferno” 31 years later after he bumped into her.
One Day
Marie Howe
One day the patterned carpet, the folding chairs,
the woman in the blue suit by the door examining her split ends,
all of it will go on without me. I’ll have disappeared,
as easily as a coin under lake water, and few to notice the difference
—a coin dropping into the darkening—
and West 4th Street, the sesame noodles that taste like too much peanut butter
lowered into the small white paper carton—all of it will go on and on—
and the I that caused me so much trouble? Nowhere
or grit thrown into the garden
or into the sticky bodies of several worms,
or just gone, stopped—like the Middle Ages,
like the coin Whitman carried in his pocket all the way to that basement
bar on Broadway that isn’t there anymore.
Oh to be in Whitman’s pocket, on a cold winter day,
to feel his large warm hand slide in and out, and in again.
To be taken hold of by Walt Whitman! To be exchanged!
To be spent for something somebody wanted and drank and found delicious.
Stone
Immanuel Mifsud
translated from the Maltese by Ruth Ward
I’m a stone but at night I turn into a woman:
A face is born, arms and a pair of legs.
I go forth in the dark, as I need no light to make my way—
which I know well: through the breath
I exhale, inhale; the breath that
moves, moves me, lifts me
to that summit where no one approaches.
I alone can reach this place,
as only I can see it.
The Swan, No. 3 (Hilma af Klint)
Victoria Chang
To witness two objects grasping each other, is the worst kind of aloneness. When the swans finally embrace, my beauty has a fissure. Where has it gone? What’s fallen through it? A woman’s life is a lament, between two swans. To care or not to care about beauty. To write is to either want to live or to want to die. But a poem requires both equally. How the wing of the white swan is redder. From its own bleeding from love. Or it picked up the blood of the black swan. In comforting, the swans seem to grow closer. But there’s a scar at every attachment. How quickly the swans have found the scar. The way that hugging can look so similar to strangling, that I’m no longer sure which one I’ve been doing. The way everything becomes death’s symbol, especially transformation. Especially love. The way poems, as you write them, seem to fly at first, but then
fasten to the page, becoming arthritic before your eyes. The way we all appear to consent to our deaths. The
way that death is always asterisked but beauty isn’t.
Tomorrow we will be married for 26 years. It’s not my good looks, and it certainly isn’t my money. So I dunno why she hangs around still. Especially with what I put her through recently.
She sent me a mixtape back when we were talking online. Like physical blank cassette tape she recorded songs on. In THE MAIL. Like USPS. Yeah we are that old. Now before I share this I will give you the context to why this is significant. Like 98% of the songs she recorded were country. 20 something Adam DID NOT like country music. But this was the first song on the tape, and wore that tape plum out listening to this song over and over.
When You Say Nothing At All — Alison Krauss
https://youtu.be/1SCOimBo5tg?si=jcfM4nOnhB5q8xoN
🎩 🥃,
Normally I’m not a Country fan, but I really like this one, very touching !
Happy Anniversary Brother.
Tell Momma hello from me..
Please drink 1 or more for me also, as I will be at work.. 😂🥂
To Autumn
John Keats
Season of mists and mellow fruitfulness,
Close bosom-friend of the maturing sun;
Conspiring with him how to load and bless
With fruit the vines that round the thatch-eves run;
To bend with apples the moss’d cottage-trees,
And fill all fruit with ripeness to the core;
To swell the gourd, and plump the hazel shells
With a sweet kernel; to set budding more,
And still more, later flowers for the bees,
Until they think warm days will never cease,
For summer has o’er-brimm’d their clammy cells.
Who hath not seen thee oft amid thy store?
Sometimes whoever seeks abroad may find
Thee sitting careless on a granary floor,
Thy hair soft-lifted by the winnowing wind;
Or on a half-reap’d furrow sound asleep,
Drows’d with the fume of poppies, while thy hook
Spares the next swath and all its twined flowers:
And sometimes like a gleaner thou dost keep
Steady thy laden head across a brook;
Or by a cyder-press, with patient look,
Thou watchest the last oozings hours by hours.
Where are the songs of spring? Ay, Where are they?
Think not of them, thou hast thy music too,—
While barred clouds bloom the soft-dying day,
And touch the stubble-plains with rosy hue;
Then in a wailful choir the small gnats mourn
Among the river sallows, borne aloft
Or sinking as the light wind lives or dies;
And full-grown lambs loud bleat from hilly bourn;
Hedge-crickets sing; and now with treble soft
The red-breast whistles from a garden-croft;
And gathering swallows twitter in the skies.
Autumn Fires
Robert Louis Stevenson
In the other gardens
And all up in the vale,
From the autumn bonfires
See the smoke trail!
Pleasant summer over,
And all the summer flowers,
The red fire blazes,
The grey smoke towers.
Sing a song of seasons!
Something bright in all!
Flowers in the summer,
Fires in the fall!
Autumn’s Gold
George MacDonald
Along the tops of all the yellow trees,
The golden-yellow trees, the sunshine lies;
And where the leaves are gone, long rays surprise
Lone depths of thicket with their brightnesses;
And through the woods, all waste of many a breeze,
Cometh more joy of light for Poet’s eyes—
Green fields lying yellow underneath the skies,
And shining houses and blue distances.
By the roadside, like rocks of golden ore
That make the western river-beds so bright,
The briar and the furze are all alight!
Perhaps the year will be so fair no more,
But now the fallen, falling leaves are gay,
And autumn old has shone into a Day!
Ghareeb
Fatimah Asghar
Meaning: stranger, one without a home and thus, deserving of pity. Also: westerner.
on visits back your english sticks to everything.
your own auntie calls you ghareeb. stranger
in your family’s house, you: runaway dog turned wild.
like your little cousin who pops gum & wears bras now: a stranger.
black grass swaying in the field, glint of gold in her nose.
they say it so often, it must be your name now, stranger.
when’d the west set in your bones? you survive
each winter like you were made for snow, a stranger
to each ancestor who lights your past. your parents,
dead, never taught you their language—stranger
to everything that tries to bring you home. a silver sun
& blood-soaked leaves, everything a little strange
& a little the same—like the hump of a deer on the busy
road, headless, chest propped up as the cars fly by. strange
no one bats an eye. you should pray but you’re a bad muslim
everyone says. the Qur’an you memorized turns stranger
in your mouth, sand that quakes your throat. gag & ache
even your body wants nothing to do with you, stranger.
how many poems must you write to convince yourself
you have a family? everyone leaves & you end up the stranger.
Stranger
Both the East and the West set in my bones
I’ve survived each blizzard of winter
as if I were made for snow
I’ve become Snow
🐦🔥