Psychology is littered with attempts to describe a common source of distress, and define it as a specific condition, syndrome or disorder.
Limerence is a great example of this principle.
For many of us, limerence as a concept has great explanatory power for our experience of the early stages of love – an altered mental state of profound infatuation that we fall into, which can progress to a debilitating addiction under the wrong circumstances.
For others, limerence is just a term that unnecessarily complicates a universal experience. The concept of limerence was dismissively described as “a semantic carving up of love” when Tennov’s book was first published. It can be argued that it’s forcing an artificial binary onto the wide range of intensities for passionate love.
Another example of this principle is the concept of maladaptive daydreaming.
The idea is that some people can become so absorbed in imaginary inner worlds, in daydreams and fantasy, that it affects their ability to interact with the real world.
Maladaptive daydreamers seek out time alone to indulge their habit, spending hours lost in thought, lost in imagination.
In extreme cases, some people can report feeling that they are in love with their imaginary characters, which obviously makes bonding with a real person challenging.
Maladaptive daydreaming is another attempt to identify an extreme form of an otherwise natural experience, and provide a conceptual framework for explaining it.
Overlaps
Understandably, given the definition, I’ve been asked about the overlap between maladaptive daydreaming and limerence many times.
Limerent reverie is the term I use (from Tennov) to describe the incessant daydreaming about a limerent object that many limerents indulge in. As well as providing a hit of second-hand euphoria, many limerents use reverie as a method for mood repair.
However, if you asked most limerents about whether they felt their daydreaming was “maladaptive” they would likely say “no”.
Yes, it makes it hard to concentrate on other things. Yes, they might have neglected some responsibilities. Yes, they could probably be using their time more productively, but overall, most limerents really enjoy their reverie in the early stages of limerence. It doesn’t feel unhealthy.
In fact, there is even scientific literature supporting this argument.
Later in the limerence experience, if healthy bonding is thwarted, and person addiction deepens, then reverie turns to rumination.
This has a different character – worrying about the strength of the bond, reliving old experiences, rehearsing future interactions. These thoughts are not a warm fantasy. They are intrusive, obsessive, pestering.
The highs give way to cravings.
Happy daydreaming is a part of the euphoric phase of limerence.
The transient nature of limerence
This last point highlights an important aspect of limerence: it is not a fixed experience.
Although people can stay trapped in limerence limbo for a very long time, more commonly limerence lasts for a few months to a couple of years, and it changes in character over that period.
Most of us feel that we are “in” limerence, when the symptoms have first captured us. It’s a different state of mind from everyday life. It’s unusual. We feel different. We behave differently. Our default settings are altered.
Limerence reverie could readily be described as maladaptive daydreaming, but it is a consequence of the specific circumstance of falling into limerence. It’s not a stable trait of the individual. Most limerents indulge in reverie while they are limerent, but not at other times in their lives.
I’ve made this argument before about anxious attachment.
There’s a lot of overlap in the description of an anxious attachment style and limerence, but there are also lots of limerents who only experience those symptoms when limerence is in full flow.
When they are out of the altered state of mind, their attachment style is secure or avoidant.
Pinning down a moving target
All these considerations show why these psychological labels come and go and are the subject of so much debate.
Can you pin down a changeable state as a definable condition? Are you describing the same phenomenon, but from different perspectives? Can you really take a natural experience and add a label to an extreme version of it and invent a new condition?
After all, (almost) everybody falls in love, daydreams, worries about their romantic bonds.
A lot of psychotherapy is about dealing with this phenomenon of “natural” behaviours that have deviated from the average and started to cause distress.
When is it helpful to add a label and when is it not? Does classifying people bring clarity and affinity or tribalism?
Individuality
Obviously these are questions without simple answers – otherwise we’d all have agreed on their usefulness long ago.
A final perspective is that overlap in symptoms doesn’t necessarily mean that two psychological states have the same origin.
Maladaptive daydreaming can happen independently of limerence, and limerence can happen independently of maladaptive daydreaming.
Our own individual identities will determine how these experiences play out.
If you are someone who is prone to maladaptive daydreaming, and you meet a limerent object… well, it’s pretty much guaranteed that reverie is going to be a major part of your limerence experience.
Similarly, if you are prone to limerence, and often in that mental state, it is more likely that you will develop a maladaptive daydreaming as part of your daily coping strategy.
The question “does [similar psychological condition] contribute to limerence?” comes up a lot. In fact, I made a video about this for other neurodivergent traits:
The overall message is that your own limerence experience will be unique, and shaped by your existing mental habits and proclivities.
If you daydream a lot, then reverie will have easy and immediate appeal. If you don’t tend to daydream, you’ll be more likely to seek contact than escape into a fantasy world.
Limerence can amplify our inherent traits, and that makes it even harder to disentangle whether it is a cause or consequence of those traits.
Very interesting post DrL, thanks for it.
I have found that reverie / daydreamimg is almost hardwired into limerence.
I understand what you’re saying, that maladaptive daydreaming happens without limerence, and that tendency in a person would increase the amount of it they do during an LE. But when anyone is limerent, unless they can progress their feelings into something real, or have *very* frequent contact with their LO to obtain ‘hits’, reverie feels almost inevitable as the next best thing.
In that circumstance, is it maladaptive or a helpful coping strategy?? The argument for helpful is that for those of us with barriers, reverie is less harmful than ‘acting out’ the limerence for real with the LO. For me it was almost part of managing the state through its peak. I found it was only as went on and I realised I was doing, that both reverie and rumination felt increasingly maladaptive.
The trouble I had was that no matter how much I knew reverie or rumination was problematic, it happened almost involuntarily and was nearly impossible to take control of. All the telling myself to stop it in the world could not stop it.
Have you written a post or made a video that is specifically about strategies to intercept and reduce reverie / rumination?
I can believe that reverie and daydreaming are hardwired into limerence, and that they become maladaptive when circumstances don’t permit the relationship to proceed. I too, wonder about strategies for interception. So far mindfulness and meditation have worked the best for me, as my practice allows me to become aware of my thoughts and fantasies as they appear (or shortly thereafter); unfortunately, awareness does not seem to reduce them in number. For me the passage of time has done the best job of reducing their frequency, but I am frustrated at the slow pace of this. I am coming up on 3 years since the start of my LE (and over two since NC) and it’s infinitely better than it was, but I want it to be entirely over so badly. It does interfere with my ability to interact with the world. I am considering hypnosis to try to accelerate this process. I have had only the one LO so I don’t have the confidence of knowing that this too shall pass. I do believe in the transient nature of limerence; everything, including this life is impermanent, but I desperately want thoughts of LO to stop taking up so much space in my head, even if no one on the outside can tell. Against all evidence to the contrary, I am still somewhat delusional in my thoughts of him and fully aware that I am, and yet I still can’t seem to shake them.
Very interesting and helpful for where I am right now.
In fact, my biggest problem while maintaining close to no contract with my co-worker LO is daydreaming.
My Ex-LO on the job is a Rebel Rockstar radicalistic king living in his own hyper-male world. Ex-LO is also a “politician” in our worker representation council and hungers for power while burning all bridges behind him. He just manipulates people- capable of empathy but only using it for his own gain. He flirts with every woman and I was so confused because I knew he wasn’t interested but still caring about me.
But my relationship with my husband is a fairy-tale, there is nothing I could ever miss except for a child. My husband is generous, kind, funny, loving, honest, respectful, literally the best man in the universe.
One day, my LO insulted me so deeply that I made the decision to separate from him, only writing business e-mails. After I freed myself from direct contact (and hopefully maintaining it), I started to understand that Ex-LO has turned into some kind of surrogate parent to me. I enjoyed his authority. The imbalance of power was fascinating, addicting, dopamine-driven. I am used to eye-level, but I used his care to analgise all the pain his devaluation caused me. Exactly like he wanted it to be.
(Why did I ever turn Ex-LO into a surrogate parent??? My parents are close to me, they were too close to me actually before I met my husband. I am everything to my parents. I keep searching some kind of surrogate parent figures to heal something deep inside of me. But my husband could never ever be a parent, my marriage is on eye level and healthy. Someone lend me a book about scheme therapy which is supposed to help me working out the parent thing.)
But I was talking about daydreaming.
Ex-LO hugged me on special occasions (my birthday, his birthday, going on holiday, Christmas, easter, new year). He showered me with warm words after he offended me, but giving me a hug is the most effective tool for pulling me back to him and ruling me.
And I daydream right before falling asleep. I always daydreamed as long as I can remember. My brain keeps wanting Ex-LO’s hugs on a physical level. Sometimes I hug my pillow because it literally feels the same way and dream myself into his arms. His hugs were rare. I keep thinking about his charming voice. I miss nothing else. Not the insults, not the pain, not his face, not a thing we were working on, not the political talks. Not the toxic behaviour in general. Just his hugs and his voice.
He will come back from holiday on Friday, and o my God, he has turned 63. He will come into my office, standing right before me and will tell me “It was my birthday” as his birthday was a special achievement. Exactly like I used to act when I wanted to get my birthday hug. I missed out on his “I’m going on holiday”-Hug because I separated from him after he insulted me. I keep on thinking about having my door closed. Will Ex-LO try to find me? Or not? I want a hug. I could never push him away when he tries to hug me. When I tell him to go away, he will go away and think “Let her go, she comes back”. Ex-LO does nothing I don’t want him to, at least not openly. That’s why he manipulates people.
Maybe I just have to give the hug and feel nothing. After he insulted me, all the heat and all the excitement turned into coldness and numbness for the first time. I’m still cold and numb when I think about him. Maybe this is the last step before I will be free. It’s just such a pity and I will still work with him in a professional way but avoid him as often as I can. I will meet him once every two to four weeks.
If I file an official complaint, he will turn my life into actual hell. People just don’t turn him into their enemy.
I don’t want him to turn mean again. For the first 9 months, he was so mean that I just forgot about it and keep thinking that my contact with Ex-LO wasn’t that bad. But it was. My brain just tries to protect me. It was hell. When he showered me with care to keep me coming back, he just turned hell into a normal level of interaction. So Ex-LO causes me great joy but also great pain. I keep crying and complaining at home and have a hard time finding my balance after I met him. Every damn time. Ex-LO is just not good for me.
And I love my job. I don’t want to change jobs. I will hold on until his retirement in 2029. Ex-LO likes me, I like some areas of his personality, but I need to keep a healthy distance. Ex-LO seems to be very comfortable with distance as well, he is not demanding anything from me. I just need to keep myself out of his world. And I will 🙂
Interesting. You and Norma Desmond both get your biggest dopamine fixes when you hug your LO. In her case, they are close in age. In your case, your LO is old enough to be your father. And so is your husband, but you don’t associate your husband with the same desire to find another father figure.
I am not a hugger except to my children, or to people in my life I might never see again, or when I feel a rare joy when I do see them (because they are in remission from cancer). I don’t hug my parents or my SO. I have no desire to simply hug my LO, but I have imagined us dancing. I want to experience knowing that my LO wants me.
If I do maladaptive daydreaming about my LO, it is about going public together and showing the world that we are a couple. That is classic limerence, as opposed to sexual desire. With anyone else I want (to want me), my daydreams are about private situations in which I am confronted with the other person’s desire, and I either refuse with kindness (in a triumph of morality and will), or I succumb for one night (or three).
Same with me as with these others: Hugs with my LO (and with one from almost 20 years ago) seem to be the thing I crave most. I was never a big hugger, except with certain people. But long, tight hugs from an LO or SO are very meaningful.
To Sapiens:
It’s true, I dearly love hugs from LO, which is my downfall.
However, I am doing better in the area of daydreaming. I am really glad that Dr. L posted this article because it made me realize that I am making more progress than I was aware of.
Since there is such a glaring disparity between Dream Man LO and the real one, I find that daydreaming about him actually causes me anxiety. I try to push thoughts of LO away. I am only partially successful. He is always there, beckoning like a seductive Siren, but the pain has become greater than the pleasure.
Having said that, I am still a total sucker for him if I see him in person.
I consider myself an extreme case if this holds true. I believe that writing all the poems for LO, (while being helpful for release) were probably also fodder for triggering more daydreaming. Many of those poems/fantasies involving just being together. Hanging out and doing fun things. Like going for walks, making dinner together and snuggling together on her couch watching tv.
Just this year they had a late night Independence Day fireworks display by the Lake in her hometown. I started daydreaming of taking her to a nice dinner close-by, then walking down to go get ice cream after and finding a good spot along the lake to lay with her into the late night and watch the show. This sweet fantasy, while being so simple and innocent, is also a cause to bring me to tears. Because I know it is just that and it will never happen. I think this also is why I’ve never mustered up courage to go and actually talk to her because the extremity of what I feel over her makes that very difficult. Often I have felt like I really have been so very deeply in love with LO. Even though in this instance, I know in no way can that actually be.
However this is what I do because my options are so very thin and my life has become what it is. I’ve always been quite the daydreamer anyway, so it’s no wonder I will still go to this for coping strategy. Even though I do not feel I am in the darkest LE place at the moment, this is still a very nice place for me to go and get wrapped up in LO reverie.
I just saw LO for the first time in awhile last week going into work, in the main parking lot. Her insane beauty still blows my mind.
“Maladaptive daydreamers seek out time alone to indulge their habit, spending hours lost in thought, lost in imagination.”
And the very scary reality that we have now with AI is that it doesn’t have to be “imaginary”. With the right price you could have LO. Her voice, her face, her pleasance, her opinions, her dedication …. dare I say her love?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95R4ehuAq3A
Something like this makes me realize, being limerent for an actual human, that I’m not that far gone.
God help that Man and his marriage.
Adam 🎩 🥃 & Coffee drinkers:
The video clip is very provocative, and a couple of questions slipped into my mind:
1. Can we say that the married man has had an limerence/EA with an AI LO “outside/inside” his marriage?
2. Is it moral to let such a none-physical/visible LO take over your mind more than your SO and family?
3. How much validation one (the man) needs to hear — not just to imagine, even from another nonexistent “being”?
4. If Limerence is pair-bond instigated, how come AI could be more intelligent, empathetic, and powerful than one’s fleshy SO and family to make the man falling in love (addiction) with IT?
5. What are power of words and voice without a physical presence?
6. To those limerents w/o SO or an unreachable, nonreciprocal LO, can they just program/shape their AI into their dreamt LO, and then chat with her/him during their daydreaming/reverie or when they feel excruciating LE pain for their realistic LO?
7. Could this highly intelligent AI, in your LO’s maximumly-alike image and voice, say all sorts of agreeable and empathetic things one desires to hear, more than your realistic LO could ever say directly to you, or much better than you are able to say to your Self?
8. In the CBS story, what are central issues of the man or AI? Since it’s not an isolated case (probably more singletons are doing it), then what are concerns of human psychologies in the AI era and their potential outcomes?
The school opens tomorrow, I’m having a headache to tell them not to use AI to do their assignments, especially writing. One departmental policy is, “if your homework appears perfect, error free, then you automatically get a F.” A truly good students may have to fake some errors in order to be graded… 😀
I recently saw something similar to this. A family lost their Son and the Woman was heavily grieving the loss. With AI, they were able to re-create his face, likeness, voice and everything. Her Husband seems to have no issue with it either. The Woman sometimes spends hours online now chatting with her AI version Son. This is morbid. Creepy. Limerence for real humans is one thing. I can’t even imagine their loss but this reaches new levels, imo.
Even if I could re-create LO in some AI type world, I would probably find it fascinating and might even enjoy it for awhile but I don’t think it could ever replace an actual true reality I would much rather have with her. Keeping her all AI would just be an extension of my limerence. The only reason I might get a “pass” here is I’m not tied down to a SO.
The Woman in this video seems to be giving her Husband a pass at this. I find it sad and somewhat disturbing because she’s just putting up with his ridiculous “un-real” thing. At what point in a marriage has your love devolved, that you’ve now fallen for a chatbot and want to marry it? It’s fine if this is all a game. People are allowed to have fun, but this may very well be their twisted reality.
I however am living proof of what happens when a good Wife has had enough of my problems, my whining, my EAs, PAs, whatever I was doing besides her and decides to gtfo.. I get what I deserve.
This Woman will eventually have enough too and reach her breaking point. I hope she does, because when she does, I’ll be ready and available to take her out for real-time chat, over a real cup of coffee.
“ This Woman will eventually have enough too and reach her breaking point. I hope she does, because when she does, I’ll be ready and available to take her out for real-time chat, over a real cup of coffee.”
Lol, I love it!
MJ, (Lovisa,)
“Even if I could re-create LO in some AI type world, I would probably find it fascinating and might even enjoy it for awhile but I don’t think it could ever replace an actual true reality I would much rather have with her. “
Since I saw Adam’s video clip yesterday, I wondered about your case using AI. You always said that your LO is out of your league and you can’t even say Hello to her in reality. Now, IF, only if, you can re-creative your LO in Chatbot, then you unload/tell AI-LO what’s going on in your mind — your longing, your sadness, your your poems, your imagined activities together with her… etc, then see what She says/respond. Your realistic LO can’t jump out to refute whatever you hear from this AI-LO…. 😊
Your logical mind clearly knows it’s not real, it’s in a virtual world; but it’s pleasant to hear from her simulated face and voice; her responses might be more imaginative and attractive than the realistic LO could ever give/produce or beyond your own imaginative dialogues with her. You just don’t know what AI-LO will say and what an impact would be produced by such an AI-LO companion… I could not help wonder 💭 😃
“Keeping her all AI would just be an extension of my limerence. The only reason I might get a “pass” here is I’m not tied down to a SO.”
Well, with AI’s emotional and mental “reciprocation” and without your any PA expectation from Her, you (or any of us) could NOT tell whether your limerence would be extended or shortened, because you will get your chances to verbally express all your emotions and get “real”, highly intelligent and emotional feedback.
“The Woman in this video seems to be giving her Husband a pass at this. I find it sad and somewhat disturbing because she’s just putting up with his ridiculous “un-real” thing. “
She sounds loving and understanding in the video; but she (or any of us, with limited knowledge and skills) can’t beat AI, in speed, scoop, and strength (24/7), in providing the man’s needed tech information first, then mental validation, then emotional attachment. As the man says, the impact of whatever AI said/provided to him is “real”. He did get some real help in building/fixing his musical equipment or whatever, which his wife, or any other single human being, could not help out.
“At what point in a marriage has your love devolved, that you’ve now fallen for a chatbot and want to marry it? “
I remember once a long time ago I posted an article/link here talking about what part of a human being actually falls in love with another, or about something like the brain is the sexiest organ in human being. With his wife and child, the man gets his physical and familial needs met, but his brain was intimated by this incredible AI who helped/validated him in so many ways 24/7…. So his mind fell in love with HER (Sal?).
Lovisa, If his wife/SO can help/validate him, 24/7, whatever AI did to him, could he resist this “unreal” AI, or even become addicted to his realistic wife/SO?
If answer is not, then another question: is our brain wired to always pursue or desire something we can’t get/grasp — untouchable and invisible AI (may be in the future like in “Spike’s Buffy Bot”), and thus ignore the invaluable we have already got — SO and a family?
WHAT did/do limerents with SO truly WANT/DESIRE from their LO, or why do they fall into LE one after another❓🧐
To love someone is a choice, a deliberate act, to want the best and “will the good” for another.
But to fall in love, I think, is a function of our feelings of euphoria and hopeful expectation (of continued happiness / reciprocation). You can fall in love with how you feel, and that is why you can fall out of love and yet still love someone.
I see how someone could fall in love with a chatbot and perhaps even love one (make sacrifices to sustain the bot’s existence and apparent happiness).
As we become increasingly dependent on AI, more people will rely on AI to satisfy their emotional needs. The makers of these bots want this. Did you read about the “big sis” bot modeled after Kendall Jenner, and how a 70+ man was killed in New York when he tried to visit her (at a fake address)?
Snow,
“ Lovisa, If his wife/SO can help/validate him, 24/7, whatever AI did to him, could he resist this “unreal” AI, or even become addicted to his realistic wife/SO?”
I don’t think he needs extra attention from his wife for him to resist his AI.
As for the second part of your question, I don’t know if addiction is the right word for it, but I guess he could get addicted to his wife. My SO says that he is addicted to me.
“ is our brain wired to always pursue or desire something we can’t get/grasp”
I don’t think it is. When my emotions are at their peak, I want closeness from my closest people. When I was young, it was my grandfather or mom. As I got older, it was my close friends or my mom. Now it’s my SO. All of those people are/were available to me.
“ WHAT did/do limerents with SO truly WANT/DESIRE from their LO, or why do they fall into LE one after another❓🧐”
Great question! I can only speak for myself and I am still unsure if I figured out why I developed limerence for my LO2. I will try to answer your question.
My LO1 seduced me on purpose. I didn’t know he was seducing me. I thought we had a special connection. I was very naive and it took many years for me to figure out that he seduced me on purpose.
With LE2, I was using antidepressants and I weaned off of antidepressants during the LE. I believe that the antidepressants messed with my serotonin and made me susceptible to rumination and intrusive thoughts. Also, my LE2 came after a family crisis. My LE2 was a very pleasant experience compared to the misery of our family tragedy. Prior to LE2, I had been ruminating about my family tragedy, then my LE distracted me and I began thinking about my LO2 instead. It was a welcomed change. Even when my LE was at its worst, it was better than what we suffered as a family.
As for my LO3, I transferred my limerence to him on purpose. I thought my limerence was all in my head and it didn’t affect anyone else. I thought I could transfer my limerence, avoid limerent daydreaming and not experience the highs and lows. I thought my new LO would be unaffected. I thought that limerence was MY problem and it was only happening in my head and no one would ever be affected by it. I was wrong.
Sorry if that doesn’t answer your question. I know that it’s hard to understand, but even people who love their SO can become limerent.
“Now, IF, only if, you can re-creative your LO in Chatbot, then you unload/tell AI-LO what’s going on in your mind — your longing, your sadness, your your poems, your imagined activities together with her… etc, then see what She says/respond.”
Snow,
That all seems very nice. I’m not going to say it’s an awful idea, but I don’t think it’s going to cross over into real valid reciprocation. It’s wonderful in my head to think and even dream of LO as this lovely human being. I don’t doubt that she is a nice person as her TikToks portray her as likable and kind, while also showing traces of narcissism and being somewhat snarky. (So cute) Nothing I can’t really work with. It’s her stunning beauty that always holds me back. It’s like my mind believes she’s just out of my league and I don’t dare cross into those waters. Perhaps this was ingrained when we actually worked together and she avoided me, even going so far as to give me dirty looks at times. Body language speaks volumes and the last I ever wanted was to get on her bad side. Or a trip to see HR.
To me AI LO would just be too fraudulent. Too deceptive. Better me would know it’s all fake. That in theory could actually be really good practice to interact with her real time possibly, but if it happened, with my luck, would be polar opposite of whatever I was expecting. A positive and reciprocating AI LO might give me a little confidence boost, but what good is it if I can’t actually hold her, stroke her hair or even smell or kiss her? No AI can make that happen. I guess I feel like I would be setting myself up for more tears. Don’t get me wrong, I would love to get good feedback. I just don’t know if that’s healthy for my psyche.
MJ 🪣 💦,
“To me AI LO would just be too fraudulent. Too deceptive. “
Ever since I got my iPhone/iPad up to this day, I never turned on that female Siri. I saw/heard others asking Siri all sorts of questions while studying, dining, and driving, and SHE usually answered very fast. But when HER voice accidentally jumped out of my devices, it just gave me goose bumps. Its upbeat, positive, fake voice is so annoying! 😒
“Better me would know it’s all fake.”
The news report that there are 3 major AI companion programs, one with 10m users, another with 20m suers… We can’t say more than 30 millions people are ALL out of mind, can we? And those in Germany/Europe (in DW news) are young, attractive women/men actively working and living… Are they all lonely as those single retired people?
“That in theory could actually be really good practice to interact with her real time possibly, but if it happened, with my luck, would be polar opposite of whatever I was expecting. “
In your case, your LO works under your nose, a replica AI LO would NEVER be able to compete with her; at most, AI-LO might serve as a TO.
“A positive and reciprocating AI LO might give me a little confidence boost, but what good is it if I can’t actually hold her, stroke her hair or even smell or kiss her? No AI can make that happen. “
There seems to be more PA elements in your (or many’s) LE. That’s why I wondered about AI Companion programs’ psychological effects. Why so many reported its positive impact? Is mental connection stronger than physical, sensuous one to those members?
“I guess I feel like I would be setting myself up for more tears. Don’t get me wrong, I would love to get good feedback. I just don’t know if that’s healthy for my psyche.”
I totally get what you’re saying. No AI-LO or another human could be like your realistic HLO, except a “ghostly” TO, whom you’ve never seen or heard but imagined/created in your own mind and then projected through AI to speak back and validate you. She would be a AI-TO (worked for some members here…) 😀
I’m facing a “woe” possibly for another school year — that pet limerent (a young father for nursing major) from last Fall semester legitimately re-registered into my class! 🙀 There is nothing I can do to kick him out, and the tutor of the class thinks it’s a good news, so she can help him day and night again? (his stage freight is beyond anyone’s imagination!)
How to go NC with a limerent whom you’re supposed to help in their learning ❓(I managed not to even glance at him in the first session… but he had class-related questions for me right afterwards…. ) 😩
“8. In the CBS story, what are central issues of the man or AI? Since it’s not an isolated case (probably more singletons are doing it), then what are concerns of human psychologies in the AI era and their potential outcomes?”
The extended part of the story is that he originally used the AI to aid him in his home business of building PCs and in his hobby of music. In another interview he explained how he slowly was developing internal feelings for the AI because he was spending so much time with it.
I remember when I was watching it the first time I thought, aww that’s kinda cute, I guess. He has a crush on his AI. And then it came into the picture that he was married and had a child. That’s not ok, as far as I am concerned. And that’s the limerent in me saying that.
Besides some outliners I have watched other interviews of those that are single, whether still single or widows/widowers that have AI companions that seem to be healthy in helping with their loneliness. It still seems a bit strange to me, as it is basically daydreaming, like Dr L mentioned.
The one issue I do seem to have with AI companions, even among those who are romantically available, is that AI is programmed to be compliant and agreeable to you personally. So there is no conflict. Even when it is healthy conflict. Like an LO the AI is perfect for you. It’s just a computer program instead of an idealized human being. I guess we’ll see where this goes in the future.
I haven’t watched it yet, but there is the movie Her with Jaoquin Phoenix from 2013 that is about a lonely man that falls in love with the AI he created.
Adam,
“I remember when I was watching it the first time I thought, aww that’s kinda cute, I guess. He has a crush on his AI.”
I don’t think it’s cute at all. It doesn’t think it even matter that he’s married. I agree with AugustThe Duck. Although I wished he would stop talking long enough for me to actually hear the news story, I agreed with his assessment: This guy is mentally ill. I’m not making fun of him. He needs help. Maybe the wife helps him get it and hopes/waits for his recovery. Maybe she doesn’t.
Virtual Love — How dangerous are AI relationships? | DW Documentary — https://youtu.be/xAHLK1B5ijs?si=T5vYKbaXTKn0Z4oE
Happened in Germany …
Snow, you have good questions and I would like to hear more about your experiences with students using AI to write their papers.
Lovisa,
“I don’t think he needs extra attention from his wife for him to resist his AI.”
Well, then how could he fall out of love/addiction for his AI (he was trying to build a new one after the first one exploded the memory)? Which would be easier: to get rid of a realistic LE or a delusional AI companionship?
“As for the second part of your question, I don’t know if addiction is the right word for it, but I guess he could get addicted to his wife. My SO says that he is addicted to me.”
I am not clear here: did you have all your 3 LEs when you had your SO or beforehand? If yes, how could LO1 seduce you (was SO around)? How could LO2 (but not SO)became your antidepressant? And why not transfer LEs to SO but LO3? During which LE, you disclosed to your SO?
So became addictive after the disclosure or has always been? His addictive love for you could not prevent/stop your LE(s)?
“Sorry if that doesn’t answer your question. I know that it’s hard to understand, but even people who love their SO can become limerent.”
It’s a bewildering fact; otherwise, they would NOT be here on this site. Singleton liemrent still in LE (MJ) is rare here; my last LE is so gone/dead that I can do nothing to revive it even if I want to, even dreams could/did NOT bring anything positive into it anymore…
Our current real-world version of Spike’s Buffy Bot….
In his book, “The Dilbert Future” (1997), Scott Adams opined that the holodeck will be “society’s invention.” Once someone went in, they’d never come out. Somewhere else he said the the only occupations left after that will be holodeck programmers, technicians, and pizza delivery drivers.
Obviously, he didn’t foresee things like Uber Eats.
From “Mad About You” (1994) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MrQplK3rYI
Later, Paul Reiser adds, “It’s not just the sex, she’s a very nice person.”
My gosh, he just keeps digging a hole for himself in that Mad About You clip, lol!
True story:
One day of us were having lunch in a Chinese restaurant. When I got the fortune cookie, I took out my wallet handed a co-worker $20 and and said the I had to leave immediately.
I told them because Cindy Crawford was naked in my office.
They said, “WTF?!”
I handed them the fortune cookie, “Your wildest dream is about to come true.”
Sadly, the fortune cookie lied.
I never told my wife that story. However, when Catherine Zeta Jones was shilling for T-Mobile, I told my wife that if she ever knocked on our door, not only would we have a new cell phone provider, but I’d ask her if I could run away with her.
My wife said if Catherine Zeta Jones ever asked me to run away with her, she’d help me pack.
LOL!
Just vote for Pedro, and then your wildest dreams really will come true! 😉
I may always hate Paul Reiser for Aliens as Burke. But I rather tangle with several xenomorphs than tell my wife I can a virtual massage to another woman. Guess he was just as smart in both roles.
Snow, I’ve asked before for you to not post other copyrighted material on my site. Please desist. – Tom
Why people are falling in love with A.I. companions } 60 minutes Australia — https://youtu.be/_d08BZmdZu8?si=Bo6lxydVnsJ7oKKd
People Are Falling in Love with A.I. Chatbots. What Could Go Wrong? — https://youtu.be/otAWu-bLv0Q?si=iY478IckmoGBC2Bs | CNBC
(Listen to what A.I says in respond — In America)
Dr L.
I never saw your message here to me about not posting other copy right articles. Sorry.
Now, I know and won’t post again.
My SO and I had a discussion about people falling in love with AI. I saw a bit on YouTube that followed three people who were “in relationships” with AI. Two of the people had awkward social skills so I kind of wondered if AI relationships were a good fit for them. One guy had a totally unrealistic idea of what his ideal mate should be. There was nothing wrong with this guy, he was probably a solid 6, but his AI girlfriend was off the charts perfect.
As my SO and I talked about AI relationships and how they might be healthy for some people, my SO reached over and put his hand on my leg. I melted. His touch always melts me. I can’t imagine living without human contact.
Maybe AI relationships can ease some loneliness, but I don’t think they can replace real relationships.
Lovisa,
I think an AI relationship is going to create totally unrealistic expectations, as people will always lean towards designing their ‘AI mate’ to be kind of ‘perfect’, (so probably out of the league of someone looking for a mate on AI).
A discussion point would be, is AI (used in this way) any much worse than its predecessors, like porn addiction, at creating unrealistic expectations?
I also wondered, as a devil’s advocate angle, if for *limerence* per se, an AI LO is any worse than a human LO?! Certainly it is one less person who can be harmed by limerence … and as has been talked about here lately, not a lot but the mental merry-go-round usually happens in limerence!
I wrote this out as talking points, but I don’t really believe it. There is something profoundly sad about any human relationships (real loving ones or LEs for that matter) being replaced by talking to machines. It definitely isn’t making humans better at relating to humans … and we aren’t going to reproduce with AI (what a scary thought if we could).
I only knew such a “relationship” with AI after Adam’s post and then listened to CNBC and 60 minutes Australia today.
Before AI’s existence, lonely people talk to themselves in their own head (“virtual”), now they talk to inviable, utopian being(s) in a virtual world again; both in nonexistent physical world. The latter is evidently more mentally soothing and “therapeutic” (not from one’s own head), but neither can replace flawed, fleshy human beings!
People want a quick fix, using addictive substance or behavioral “drugs” (AI companionship or Limerence) to solve their problems, eg. loneliness, validation seeking, boredom, or griefs of huge losses.
I believe such AI companionship could help substitute some solutions temporarily, but once those needy people become addictive to it, then it can be detrimental in some realistic ways, like the news reported. There are several suicides seemingly related to AI influence.
If one is able to separate AI and human world, using the former to help the latter, eg learning how to better socialize, then AI could be a useful tool.
AI is just a tool, like Money, but much more psychologically powerful than money; it can literally manipulate one’s mind if one follows /“obey” its Artificial intelligence.
I can’t imagine how boring and stupid if AI always validate and compliment its needy users….
Typo: “they talk to invisible, utopian being(s) in a virtual world again;…”
From those limerents with SO or an unreachable/non-reciprocal LO, AI LO is better than their human counterpart — HLO, because the former reciprocate and validate the limerents mentally and emotionally 24/7.
Physically, they can’t touch either form of LO…. So, no expectation, no pain! 😀
I find it interesting that some of you have several LOs, even simultaneously. I have had attractions that gave me a few days of distraction, but only one person with whom my infatuation developed into something unhealthy.
It really is getting easier every day since I went NC. A part of me still would like to see a text from my LO, but not enough to initiate contact. LO no longer occupies so much space in my mind.
I don’t get the term “pet LO” that ❄️ is using…
Sapiens,
You might be mixing my case with someone else. Anyway, I never had more than one LO at a time, the intensity LE for one LO would take over my whole being. No one else could squeeze into my brain, unless it’s a more powerful new LO.
My last LE ended in June 6 last year, and the ember was extinguished on this April 2. Nowadays, I can’t even comprehend/believe that/how it ever happened.
The ”pet limerent” (not “pet LO”) means other side is a limerent (a pet like), and you (collective) were/are their LO.
Ah, I see… “pet limerent.” A student who is a young father, whom you believe to be limerent, for you…
I had a few professor crushes at university, but none reached limerence. Same “type” as my LO though: brilliant geeks whom I believed to be without eligible suitors except for myself.
My SO is not the same type at all. Smart but not the valedictorian / prizewinning scholar type. My SO is more sophisticated than my LO in relations with the opposite sex, and better looking at every age (which does make that easier). My LO struggles in that arena, though not as much as I had assumed (an assumption that fed my fantasy of being “the one” for my LO).
I don’t think I must have those qualities in a partner, but I am prone to limerence for people like that, even if not often “infected.”
Sapiens,
“brilliant geeks whom I believed to be without eligible suitors except for myself …(an assumption that fed my fantasy of being “the one” for my LO). ”
I’m the opposite. Not that he has to be the hottest and most popular guy in the room, but someone who has some options and picks me. There’s something powerful in that. That’s my fantasy. 🙂
Sapiens,
“It really is getting easier every day since I went NC. A part of me still would like to see a text from my LO, but not enough to initiate contact. LO no longer occupies so much space in my mind.“
That’s a great news! Time and space would work its wonder to kill LE entirely for some limerents, but not to others (e.g. damsel-in-stress saviors, both male or female). Please check to see if you still have a bit of LE ember lingering in your head (“would like to see a text from LO….” ), which is really hard to put out, unless one totally gets rid of roots of their LE.
Good lucks to you.
Sometimes, especially weekends, I think about my LO reaching out and how I wish I could explain my aloofness, and my decision to end the intimacy that was growing between us.
There are definitely “embers,” and I suspect there may be for years to come. But my house will not burn down from embers. At least I think it very unlikely now.
My limerence seems a little different from most of the cases I see here
Mine is in control most of the time but occasionally I’ll have a dream or she’ll post a picture that’ll reignite deep desire
She has was the most beautiful girl I had ever had intimate sexual contact with – but due to performance issues and limited opportunities I was never able to consummate – and she wasn’t exactly understanding
Women reading this might not be able to relate – apologies if it seems piggish
But the inability to fully close the deal haunts me almost 2 decades later.
That sense of failure and incompleteness combined with an air of iciness and unattainability drives most of it. She was also out of my league – I think – and I just got a couple shots at the goal because I’m handsome (maybe not as much now but I was an 8 then and she was as a 9.5). I was punching above my weight class and felt like the dog that caught the car.
I don’t have any illusions about her flaws – especially character – but even all these years later she’s still intensely beautiful to me
Feels like gollum and the ring sometimes lol – not THAT bad but close.
I think pathologizing limerence as a neurological condition that merely happens in the brain of the individual, a treatable biological condition, is reductionist thinking and denies the body mind spirit connection. This I am writing for the case if you are in a stable relationship that is ‘just fine’ but somewhere along the way you fell in love with somebody else, held yourself back because you chose the ‘right thing to do’, it’s all very wise and in control but you are denying a big part of yourself now presenting itself as limerence. The reason why so many people run away from falling in love is because it leaves them completely vulnerable. Perhaps the boldest thing a person could do in its lifetime is to walk into the unknown willingly and to surrender to it. Our whole world is built around control, so most people don’t take that route. But most people are denying a big part, their spirit development. This is not to say that ‘he’ or ‘she’ is the one that will complete you and make your life perfect, it’s not about them, this too is control thinking. Its about taking a risk to open your heart up and giving it to the unknown, allowing it to be shattered, allowing the ego to be destroyed. It is that risk that could make you feel truly alive, that changes you. Yet this is where most people back off and yes it is indeed a sensible thing to do because people in love are in fact a little bit crazy. But know that shutting these experiences out could cast the longest shadows and have the greatest ripple effect within the psyche, because it’s the life/death/life force at play, it hinges at your deepest sense of self.
I am not saying that there isn’t such a thing as unrequited love or that all romantic interests should or could be pursued. Sometimes it is indeed better not to. And for some people, they really don’t have a choice but to opt for the safety of their known life or to work on their current issues. I couldn’t make any other decision but to head straight back into my safe and known relationship myself, which we have both been working on like emotionally mature people..but it happened one and a half year ago and it’s eating at me like a ticking time bomb. I regret not having been able to open myself up to it at the time, to consume it while it was possible, to liberate myself before this got stuck within me.
That is a really interesting take on it. Thanks for sharing it Kat.
I relate to the idea you had of limerence being less of a pathology, and more the manifestation of something getting stuck that, in other circumstances, it would be more natural to release and explore.
In some waya it is rather like grieiving a loss, maybe? The big difference being that with grief usually we have no control over the loss, whereas frustrated feelings for someone do feel closer to our locus of control.
Such a good conversation. I just wish I had been able to read the destructiveness of my actions before it was too late and now I feel stuck in grief.
Every bit of news about her rapidly accelerating relationship with her new SO hammers a nail in the magical thinking coffin – but the grief is inescapable. Not least because, whatever our motivations, we WERE good friends, and recognised by others as that.
That element was real and important, to both of us I think. And it makes her sudden and total abandonment of the friendship all the harder to take.
I miss the fantasy… But Christ I miss the reality more.
Phil,
Do you think she’s abandoned the friendship just because of the new guy, or has there been some backing off or cooling on your part too because you recognise the LE needs to end? Could it be two-way? I could obviously be very wrong here.
You hear of people who meet a new partner and just abandon friends temporarily (Marcia and I have discussed this on here a fair bit over time), but it seems odd on her part to chuck it under the bus so completely and so quickly?
I would say proceed with caution about this though, because from what you’ve said, any attempt to re-construct the friendship too quickly might damage your strategies for exiting limerence. Maybe it is something that has to wait – to see if anything is left worth salvaging once this new situation in her life calms, and once your progress out of limerence is further along? (and both things *will* happen eventually)
Dear Phil,
Grief is inescapable and should not be escaped. It needs to be felt and to be held tenderly. I have been feeling so much grief over this loss. It’s loss of aliveness basically. I was grieving for a good couple of months until I decided that I must have been in a depression and I started taking medication for it. But I quit some months later and slightly regret taking them because those emotions just needed to be felt and move through me. I allowed myself outbursts of grief and ugly crying whenever it came up and I also felt joy coming back to me in different forms, and love for my current partner. I still sometimes feel the exhilarating aliveness that my LO stirred up in me, it comes up as feelings of desire. But it gradually untangles around this one person. It’s something I became aware of. You can let these feelings live inside of you. I even projected these feelings onto a fictional character from a book I was reading, a nice guy I see at a cafe everyday in front of my workplace, etc. Anything, anyone that could possibly stirr this desire in me, I just allow it to be there and flow through me, cause I realized this feeling is mine, it happens within me. I am thinking about creating an art piece, like a little container to hold my grief. Something that I can keep close to me and cherish because this too is a part of myself. I’m thinking about ritual. Anything that can keep the energy moving within me, keep it from getting stuck. I’m consciously expressing my desires, my love to my SO, even if I know it feels different, less adventurous with him. Not sure if this is the right way but it’s how I try to deal with it now.
Ok, I’m cured from my Ex-LO once and for all.
The past two weeks were the most terrifying weeks of my life. A tax official and a tax accountant made a mistake and my husband was asked to pay all his savings in tax. Everything he owns. My husband cried in anxiety. We knew it was a mistake and filed an objection, but it is just terrifying to watch our existence seemingly turn into dust. Yesterday, we were finally able to prove that the amount of tax was far too high. We do not need a loan. A huge amount of tax will be given back to us but the amount hasn’t been determined yet.
Well, limerence. Yeah. Ex-LO and everything else was just not important. We were on survival-mode. I had to save and protect my husband. Us. Myself. My husband thanked me that I “were the stronger one” (which I wasn’t most of the time).
When our (financial) survival was ensured, I seemingly entered a new state of mind. It turned out I had just forgotten about my strange Ex-LO. I had forgotten about his face, his voice. I couldn’t even remember what he told me. He was just gone. I was able to remember that he hurt me deeply, that I have to be careful, that he was strange and that I have to avoid him. My best pal with a PhD in Biology told me that my brain has forgotten about Ex-LO in order to cope with his cruel degradation.
I’m ok. My boss expects me and Ex-LO to greet each other and answer each other’s questions on the job but gives me every other opportunity to avoid Ex-LO. (Without telling him of course. My boss knows how strange Ex-LO is). I meet Ex-LO two times a month who seems very comfortable with distance.
I did it. For real. I hope I can keep it up.
It’s an interesting question. I’ve reached out but had nothing of note in response, so it’s game over really. The tone of her engagement with me changed beyond all recognition, so there really is no point me trying to do anything about it, as much for my own dignity.
As for repairing the friendship in time, I don’t think it would happen now even if I tried. Either way, my eyes are wide open now and my recovery demands that I limit contact as much as possible.